I'm Thinking Of Building My Own Large Scale 3D Printer, And I'm Looking For Some Advice On Part Choices, And Advice On Overstraining Familier Parts From Smaller Printers

I just hooked up everything, but nothing happened. it was like it didn't have any power in it at all.

I can't see what Arduino you have but is probably a Mega 2560
Arduino is powered by USB and RAMPS by external power supply.

Unless you unplug Arduino USB there will be power on it.

DO NOT diddle connect / unconnect anything when POWER ON ----> Fried drivers!!!

Your extra component is Diode D1
D1 should only be installed if the 5A rail is powered by 12V. It can be omitted and the Arduino will be powered from USB. You will want D1 installed if you add components to print without a PC. To reiterate, D1 MUST be omitted if you are powering the 5A rail by more than 12V, or the power is not absolutely clean, otherwise you may damage your ramps.

The 5A rail is power connection at bottom left in your pix under Caps.

Ramps covered by wiki

[reprap.org]

scroll down and find everything


RAMPS forum

[forums.reprap.org]

Make sure jumpers under each driver are set correctly to the step you want
and the drivers are installed the correct way (Red, Yellow, Blue, --- jumpers
-- you are set for --- yes yes yes 1/16 step)
Your drivers look correct with adjust pots away from Mosfets and Caps


Test code for RAMPS is at:

[reprap.org]
switches on and off all the MOSFET outputs (this will make the leds blink) just be careful not to have the heated bed and extruder heater connected unless you want to heat them. Plus it will move back and forth all the stepper motors connected.

I would smoke test it without the display hooked up

Did the display provider give a type of Marlin to run to drive the display?
I run the Gadget LCD

[reprap.org]

Marlin firmware covered:
[reprap.org]

Repetier Firmware at:
[reprap.org]

Use the Arduino IDE to compile/ load the firmware


Marlin or Repitier may have code you can activate for your LCD panel

Don't be surprised if buzzer sounds off when you power it up
I had to mute it with tape until I found the buzzer OFF switch

I would recommend shielded 4 wire for stepper wiring
and shielded 2 wire for end stop switches
Single Molex plugs to connect wire to board (with singles you can swap them around if motors run wrong way)
a Molex crimp tool will make putting on connectors easier but you may have to solder if you pull on wires

My RAMPS came without drivers and drove me crazy when it wouldn't do anything for a week!

You can do it Just POWER DOWN to change connections or diddle!!!

Do you Skype or Oovoo? got a web cam
---- I can look over your shoulder
and maybe help you let the magic smoke out!!!

Quote
cozmicray
The big message

I'm going to try and go through each part bit by bit, but let me first thank you for a large reply. I love them, gives me lots to work on and process over a good long while... Yes! im on Skype, please add me, I'm Dai_lafing I think I should come up on that, if not, add Damian J Williams on Facebook (Don't want to post my email on here) let me know if you have any issues adding me.

Yes I have the Arduino Mega 2560...
I can see that the unit is powered by the USB fine, but if I connect the ATX 12v (I diced up the 2x2 4-pin 12v rail), it doesn't get powered up, probably due to D1.

I'm just wondering about this part where you say not to adjust the dials with power on? Well, how do I get my motors correctly dialed in? I've seen the perusa i3 setup videos doing that, there's a guy with a ramps on a test board doing that, seems ok? I haven't gotten to that stage yet since I cant afford any motors yet. although I have been considering pulling the cables off my Printrbot 1405 Simple just test it out? For all I know my controllers could be dead already?

Question: I did start by turning all the potentiometers all the way down so as they arnt powered on at high amps when I one day hook it up. But I noticed that only 1 of the potentiometers have a 'stopping point' when turning the dial. The other 4 turn forever! does that mean they are broken?

Will look at the links later...

The jumpers I've left in their default position, which is all three in place. Since I cannot see a reason to remove them to have less resolution?

Will check out the G-code test link for certain. I'm a little scared to connect anything up to it at the moment, so yes I think that link will edge me forward...

I'm not sure what a smoke test is? but none the less, I've already had the LCD hooked up and have been writing my own welcome screen. (See screen Shots)

The display provider didn't provide anything. But I did have the whole lot from a kit. Everything I got was bought in a single eBay listing seen here

I downloaded the latest marlin firmware here, and proceeded to set the configuration for the set up I intend. I know VB.NET and have a firm grasp of Objective-C, so its not too alien to me... Hence why I proceeded to alter the welcome image. So, I'm pretty good there, as in, im comfortable making adjustment as an when needed/advised by you guys...



ok, I'm going to need some examples from you in relation to what wiring your referring to....?
Shielded wiring? on this small scale? Gonna need to see some examples...

I love the thought of making my own plugs and connectors, where can I get some single plugs, and the crimp tool. I picture something similar to wiring the front panel of an ATX computer case, to the pin header of a motherboard for the HDD/PWR/etc lights....? Would love a tool like that

Defo add my on Skype as mentioned at the start of my reply. thanks!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2014 08:45AM by dailafing.

You can get a crimp tool from here Crimp tool and you can get the connectors from Ebay they are called DUPONT Connectors and they come in a variety of sizes you will need some 2 way and 4 way at the very least for your motor and thermistor and endstop leads (if you are using electronic endstops rather than micro switches then you will also need 3 way ones)

As for D1 see the board layout I have attached and highlighted the position on the board for you the stripe on the diode will be to the left as you look at it



HTH

Quote
dougal1957
[T]hey are called DUPONT Connectors and they come in a variety of sizes

You're a star!!!!!1 I've just ordered 2 crimpers (because I always buy two of all tools), and 500 M&F connectors of various sizes!
Been meaning to get these for a while, so since I've got a big use for it now, I've gone and got it sorted.

Today I've been working on designing my own box to contain the electronics, and efficiently route the cables.
There's a bunch of fantastic CAD files at Grabcad that I used for my sizing, and really found the following useful for shaping up own custom box:
Ramps 1.4 CAD Files
Arduino 2560 Mega
NEMA 23 Motor

So, this is where I'm at, at the moment...











Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2014 02:42PM by dailafing.

I was looking at your renderings posted on the 23rd and I realized that you are going to have big mechanical issues on your gantry with only 1 belt running things on the long axis (the 1500mm length). The reason for that is the single point of movement will cause the X/Y gantry to shift do to only be moved from one side. If you look at gantry based X/Y systems from printers like the Ultimaker they have belts that connect the rods allowing for both the X and the Y to have 2 points of attachment that move in tandem with one another. This fixes the issue that you will be facing.

Likewise, if you do run your gantry in that manner then you have to consider which type of bearings your are going to use because linear bearings CANNOT work with rotational forces as well as linear forces.

In all honesty though, I would scrap the idea of using hardened rods and go with extruded aluminum rails like OpenBuilds. They have wheels that are made to nest in the aluminum and use it like tracks. They are also about 1/10 the cost of hardened, precision rods. Setting it up in this way means that your motor placement would be 2 motors running one axis and 1 motor running the other. Personally I would put 2 motors on the short axis and 1 motor on the long axis that rides on the gantry. You will still need 2 motors for the Z and another 1 for the bowden bringing your total to 6 total motors. I would also pick up some $50 stepper drivers and 2 power supplies from ebay to run all of this. As I said before, DUMP THE PC POWER SUPPLIES. They are junk compared to the dedicated power supplies that cost just as much.

Again, the reason for the stepper drivers is because they will allow you to drive several motors that are controlled by the RAMPS (though you would have been better off with a dedicated 32 bit board) without the need for a breakout board or additional slots on your stepper driver board. Don't bother with higher grade stepper driver boards that drop into the slots, for big machines, its not worth it.

Ebay Power Supplies

Ebay Stepper Drivers

For motors, get some decent NEMA 23's.

Big machines = big parts. You can only use so much from the little machines before you run into major issues of things being under powered. Trust me I tried to go cheap when I build my big machine and it bit me in the ass.

Again, look at the big machines that are out there. If you can't find them then you aren't looking hard enough.

Yes I have the Arduino Mega 2560...
I can see that the unit is powered by the USB fine, but if I connect the ATX 12v (I diced up the 2x2 4-pin 12v rail), it doesn't get powered up, probably due to D1.

I would NOT install D1 and run arduino on usb and RAMPS on your external power supply
I think that you need 5V to run Arduino --- and there is NO 12v to 5v converter
I don't know if Arduino likes 12V

I'm just wondering about this part where you say not to adjust the dials with power on?
It's OK to adjust the pots on the drivers with a non-metalic screw driver

Question: I did start by turning all the potentiometers all the way down so as they arnt powered on at high amps when I one day hook it up. But I noticed that only 1 of the potentiometers have a 'stopping point' when turning the dial. The other 4 turn forever! does that mean they are broken?

BAD ------- Pots were probably set at manufacturer to correct voltage/ current
I don't think there are stops ---- set them so wiper is about halfway on the circular base.
See
[www.youtube.com]
[www.pololu.com]

Well if you don't know what 4 wire shielded cable is --- you maybe should NOT be doing any wiring????

Example / image: (good image --- you don't have to buy here)
[www.libertycable.com]

The connectors Molex KK® 254 Connector System or equivalent
2.54mm spacing .6mm square pin
example of single position 2.54 molex
[electronics.stackexchange.com]
Single wire housing
[www.ebay.com]
female connector
[www.ebay.com]

Smoke testing just a saying for first test --- if you don't let the magic smoke out of the components
Everything should be OK or at least safe???

Looks like the LCD is up and running from photo?
Your getting mintemp error because there are NO thermistors hooked up
and a reading of 000 get you mintemp error

Your Electronics box:

Leave room for wiring and cooling.
You may want to mount fans to cool drivers and
Mosfets (they have a lot of current controlling heaters).
I have 1 or 2 small 12 fans on all my RAMPS electronics.

Connect up external button to RESET --- you will use it a lot
You may want to see LEDs on boards.
You can glue on fiber optic or acrylic rod to see them external.

There is a neat shield for Arduino that brings pins out to screw terminals
[www.amazon.com]
[www.crossroadsfencing.com]

Don't let the smoke out!!!

Mechanical

For a Big printer I was thinking about has rails of VeeRails mounted on 1"x 1" aluminum / steel rails
[www.vgrooverail.com]
and running steel or Delrin Vee wheels on them.

Much more rigid --- you could even use 1"x 3" rails for no sag at all?

You could use a concave V rail extrusion with Vee wheels
[openbuildspartstore.com]

My experiments with 36" 12mm steel rods showed a lot of bowing even under tension.

Threadless leadscrew
[forums.reprap.org]

Now don't let them sag!!!

The purpose of D1 is to route the 5V rail from the ramps (The Ramps has a 5V regulated supply on board else how would it not blow all its components as soon as you connect 12V to it? ) to the Mega thereby allowing it to run standalone without needing the USB to be connected

Quote
cozmicray
Yes I have the Arduino Mega 2560...
I can see that the unit is powered by the USB fine, but if I connect the ATX 12v (I diced up the 2x2 4-pin 12v rail), it doesn't get powered up, probably due to D1.

I would NOT install D1 and run arduino on usb and RAMPS on your external power supply
I think that you need 5V to run Arduino --- and there is NO 12v to 5v converter
I don't know if Arduino likes 12V

The purpose of D1 is to route the 5V rail from the ramps (The Ramps has a 5V regulated supply
on board else how would it not blow all its components as soon as you connect 12V to it? )
to the Mega thereby allowing it to run standalone without needing the USB to be connected


So can you hook up ANY voltage power supply to the 5A pins
and it will be converted down to 5V for Arduino?

I think it is any DC power 7 to 12V

Mechanical?
Are you going to use CoreXY / HBot system?

[www.corexy.com]

[www.r2-3d.media-conversions.net]

[groups.google.com]

[www.thingiverse.com]

Long belts and tensioning may be a real problem.



Keep them from sagging

I have to agree with that point.

NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER mess with the POTs on stepper drivers until you have them running. They will not be over their limit and they will be at the factory setting. So if you bought them and they said that they run at 1A then they will come set at 1A. its when you Adjust them that it throws things off. You now have to hook up a meter to them and dial the Amperage back up to the correct position if you want them to run correctly.

Likewise, if you don't know what Shielded wire is, then look it up! Google is your friend! This is all about DIY printers and the community will help you but they will expect you to know some simple things like that.

Google first, then ask the forums.

GOOGLE FIRST, THEN ASK THE FORUMS!!!

It's ironic that people are asking me to read up on things, when it seems that some people are unable to read themselves.
Can somebody tell me exactly where I have asked what "shielded cable" is?
I do, however, recall asking for an example where shielded cable has been used on such a low-voltage setup.
I believe the chances of inductive interference, or potential crosstalk is minimal on a scale where such low voltage such as as 12V is being used.

Anyway, I just spent another £100 on parts today, and also been talking to another mate who's going to be getting some 12mm bars for me soon.
Someone mentioned above about the X rails (1500mm) may need linear movement support on both sides of the rails. I've taken this on-board and I'm having an additional plate installed on the other side of the x-axis closest to where the user would stand, just in case an issue arises. Then I can just install another name 23 on that support, should I run into any issues were straight out on the single motor. I can just install stepless book the table and have the single controller run both maltose.

Do you think that a single controller on the ramps board will be able to power two motors?
Also, are there alternative or more powerful stepper motor controllers that I could have purchased for use with my ramps board?

Quote
dailafing
It's ironic that people are asking me to read up on things, when it seems that some people are unable to read themselves.
Can somebody tell me exactly where I have asked what "shielded cable" is?
I do, however, recall asking for an example where shielded cable has been used on such a low-voltage setup.
I believe the chances of inductive interference, or potential crosstalk is minimal on a scale where such low voltage such as as 12V is being used.

ok, I'm going to need some examples from you in relation to what wiring your referring to....?
Shielded wiring? on this small scale? Gonna need to see some examples...dailafing msg October 26, 2014 08:44AM

A printer ,now no longer made, where endstop wires (unshielded) were run close to Stepper Wires (unshielded) and caused all kinds of endstop trips.
Lots of power (Amps) going to stepper coils at high frequency --- causing crosstalk!
Just a suggestion to use shielded wire from experience to keep you out of trouble.
But sounds like you are RF engineer and will use any wire that is available?
,
Anyway, I just spent another £100 on parts today, and also been talking to another mate who's going to be getting some 12mm bars for me soon.
Someone mentioned above about the X rails (1500mm) may need linear movement support on both sides of the rails. I've taken this on-board and I'm having an additional plate installed on the other side of the x-axis closest to where the user would stand, just in case an issue arises. Then I can just install another name 23 on that support, should I run into any issues were straight out on the single motor. I can just install stepless book the table and have the single controller run both maltose.

Above paragraph needs translation:

Again I'll say testing showed 12mm diameter 36" in length solid rods flexes a lot. up/down, side to side, even under tension!!!!!
You are going to have 10 pounds (extruder hot end, extruder, extruder motor) wizzing around out there in the middle of 4 long rods.
If you are going to use a bowden --- my condolences and be prepared for MAX frustration!!
But you are the phd mechanical engineer -- designing this HUGE printer with precise resolution!

My tested Rod is:
17-4 PH Stainless Steel Round Rod 12 mm
17-4 Precipitation Hardening (PH) Stainless Steel combines high strength with corrosion resistance.
The alloy is also known as 630 Stainless. 17-4PH has approximately the same heat and corrosion resistance as the 304 alloy.
Material: Stainless Steel
Alloy: 17-4 Stainless
Shape: Round Rod
Diameter: 12mm
Condition: H900
Finish: Turned, Ground and Polished
Hardness: RC 45-47
Notes: Tolerances: Diameter: (+0/-.0005) | Length (+/- 1/8")

Do you think that a single controller on the ramps board will be able to power two motors?
Also, are there alternative or more powerful stepper motor controllers that I could have purchased for use with my ramps board?

My Ordbot Hadron has TWO Z-Stepper motors (Nema 17 12V) run on one RAMPS driver and it runs fine.
Can't say anything about NEMA 23 motors or 24V.
If you have to go to a driver for each motor then I suppose dual extruder is out -- drivers used for axes drive
More powerfull stepper drivers would be off the RAMPS board but I suppose wires from RAMPS drivers can be run out to other drivers.
Might as well use the RAMPS and when it doen't work you can spend more money for controller and drivers that may work.
While you are replacing the rods because of too much flex and bad hotend resolution.

Keep going at high speed, not looking at other designs, or some suggestions --- and your going to have a lot of re-building
but I guess that is prototype development??

Quote
dailafing
Do you think that a single controller on the ramps board will be able to power two motors?
Also, are there alternative or more powerful stepper motor controllers that I could have purchased for use with my ramps board?

As long as your stepper drivers are rated for 2 amps and your motors are only 1 amp a piece then you will be fine. But if you go with larger steppers that draw higher amperage then you won't be able to run two of them off of one driver.

Likewise, if you want to get a higher grade stepper drivers, you can go with Pololu Black's. They are rated at 2.3 amps but require active cooling (a fan and heat sinks) to run at full capacity. Otherwise you can use standard stepper drivers to send the signals to a larger, higher powered stepper driver which will handle pushing the power needed for multiple motors.

Quote
Iceman086
As long as your stepper drivers are rated for 2 amps and your motors are only 1 amp a piece then you will be fine. But if you go with larger steppers that draw higher amperage then you won't be able to run two of them off of one driver.

Likewise, if you want to get a higher grade stepper drivers, you can go with Pololu Black's. They are rated at 2.3 amps but require active cooling (a fan and heat sinks) to run at full capacity. Otherwise you can use standard stepper drivers to send the signals to a larger, higher powered stepper driver which will handle pushing the power needed for multiple motors.

Thanks, I'll look up these ones you've mentioned.
The ones I got now are green, they came with heat sinks and every video I've seen have advised that I use active cooling.
How do I know what ones I've got?

Also, 2.3amps x 5 = 11.5amps. Could the ramps handle these Pololu Black's?
Thanks

A little study of stepper motors and stepper drivers might do some real good.
Lots of stepper info out on web.

Green PC boards Pololu item #: 1182
[www.pololu.com]
Black Edition, Black PC board - A4988 Stepper Motor Driver Carrier, Pololu item #: 2128
[www.pololu.com]

but if the drivers are knock offs (chinese made) PC color could be anything?

What voltage are you going apply to the stepper motors ?

The pololu drivers can handle 8-35 V and 1 amp per phase.

Voltage
The higher the output voltage from the driver, the higher is the level of torque versus speed.
You can think of the voltage as the driver of the current. The higher the voltage,
the faster will the current in the windings reach its new target value from one step to the next.
Therefore it is conceivable why a higher voltage will result in better speed performance.

Current
The current capability is another key parameter in selecting an appropriate power supply.
The current rating is determined by the choice of motor and the stepping mode you are
planning to use it in. Full step mode, where both phases are on all the time at maximum
current, requires more current than microstepping modes. Also, the current draw strongly
depends on the voltage. The higher the voltage, the less current will be required from the
power supply to achieve a given phase current in the windings of the motor.
Typically a power supply capable of delivering ½ or more of the peak phase current
should be sufficient. For example, if you are using a motor with a maximum phase current
of 4A per phase and assuming the drive is set to this maximum value, a power supply
capable of delivering 2A or more will be adequate in most applications.
When connecting several drives / motors to one power supply,
the current draw for all drives need to be added together to yield the requirement
for the power supply.

My NEMA 17 motors are much more powerful at 24V than at 12V and more holding torque.

The extruder hotend and heated bed will pull more on your RAMPS mosfets than the motors!
With your tight RAMPS case --- the components will be toasted real quick.

Maybe use it to grill burgers?

Just keep bumbling around -- NOT doing some study from info on the web

One thing I would like to add. Printing with a large nozzle certainly helps a bunch. I accidentally bored my jhead to 1.54mm and tried to print with it anyway. After some fiddling it will work. You need a geared extruder with a ratio of 2:1 or so to keep the motor happy and that spool spinning fast.

For the front bezel of my printer I was going to print the part with the original .4mm nozzle and it was going to take ~6.5 hours. The size of it is around 230mmx160mmx40mm or thereabouts. The j-head jammed and I tried to clear it. My fault as I cooked the abs at 230c for 15 minutes while the heated bed came up to temp ~100c, which caused a jam and a failed print. After trying to sneak up on the nozzle orifice from behind with a 1.54mm drill bit twisting it by hand I ended up puncturing the soft aluminum and going right through.

My results after the freak out of destroying my j-head were promising. The filament swelled from an average of 1.74mm to an average of 1.85mm through the over sized j-head. After some tuning and a few more failed attempts I was able to print nicely with it and finished the print job with 100% infill ~1.5hours.... Astounding results by my count. While this is on a delta printer which is inherently fast. The results are great.

Here is a video of it. High Speed 3d print

Next up I am replacing the hot end with a all metal design. I will be boring one of my nozles to 1mm or so and use that for higher speed large prints, and keep the variety of nozzles I have at stock sizes ranging from .3mm to .5mm..... I think having a large printer you need a larger nozzle unless you want to print small things in high detail ~1mm nozzle should allow for layer thickness in the .5-.8mm range. If you want to use 1.5mm nozzle or even 2mm nozzle I would suggest 3mm filament. You also need to specify the wall thickness in a 1:1 with the nozzle size, I found it helped preserve the dimensions, which also means you should keep an eye out on designs using parts smaller than your nozzle.

my .02c.....

---

My Personal Blog. Build blog.
[engineerd3d.ddns.net]

Modicum V1 sold on e-bay user jaguarking11

You are building a huge printer
but
NOT scaling up everything.
Your huge prints will require days of printing
Will your electronics, motors last for days without melting?
Your X, Y. Z movements will be 4 times smaller printers
thus motors running longer and harder.
Long suspension of your extruder on tiny rods will kill the resolution.

Big printers need big motors, big electronics, big mechanics
and thinking of all the things BIG changes of a little printer?

ABS printers a usually enclosed -- keeping production chamber warm
--- are you going to put your printer in a huge powder coating oven?

Matchbox car vs real car???

Just a thought

Quote
cozmicray
You are building a huge printer
but
NOT scaling up everything.
Your huge prints will require days of printing
Will your electronics, motors last for days without melting?
Your X, Y. Z movements will be 4 times smaller printers
thus motors running longer and harder.
Long suspension of your extruder on tiny rods will kill the resolution.

Big printers need big motors, big electronics, big mechanics
and thinking of all the things BIG changes of a little printer?

ABS printers a usually enclosed -- keeping production chamber warm
--- are you going to put your printer in a huge powder coating oven?

Matchbox car vs real car???

Just a thought

Not necessarily, he could use geared motors and vslot grooves to build something bigger. Or even better he could buy some large and small gt2 pulleys and create his own belt driven gearbox, giving him proper ratios to double the torque of the motors used, at the expense of some speed, but certainly not 1/2 the speed. Nema 23's are available, so are more powerful stepper drivers. Engineering is about problem solving. Sometimes you wont know how it works until you try. My printer is not in the grand scale his is, but It is a large 4.5 feet off the ground, working with nema 17's.... rather well may I add. Certain things need to get larger, other things can stay the same.

---

My Personal Blog. Build blog.
[engineerd3d.ddns.net]

Modicum V1 sold on e-bay user jaguarking11

Hi everybody! I am new here and just stumbled upon this thread while researching for my own rather big ABS 3D printer.

Reading through the posts, here are just some thoughts about the construction of high-quality parts of usable precision, especially if you are aiming at some sort of technical application for your printed parts: If you are printing ABS, there will most likely be a need to print big parts in a heated build chamber and the design of the whole system should be taking that into account. So we are talking about a cubic meter or more of space that will have to be heated up to around 70°C and kept that way. So we are talking about stepper motors that will be INSIDE this chamber all the time (because getting them outside is probably too complicated, except for the motors of the Z-axis maybe). Of course other parts like belts etc. will also be subject to this continuous heat. This "could" become an issue if you combine it with the extremely long print times of several days no matter what. Electricity consumption is another factor, though I think with proper isolation, it should not be too ridiculous. But it should be calculated.
So having the stepper motors in this oven could turn into an issue. So you might have to be prepared for watercooling them- not terribly expensive or complicated, but certainly another layer of complexity and cost and another system that can fail.

dailafing, there is a high current, affordable, Pololu driver-compatible stepper motor driver called Powerlolu.
search youtube for Powerlolu and you'll get an idea. It allows you to use very beefy stepper motors up to 10A, 50V with the classical RAMPS for example, and only on the channels where it is needed. So that might be an option, with separate PSUs of course. (look on eBay, there are lots of old industrial system PSUs on sale for relatively low prices, for example 48V units from telecommunication systems. Look for stuff that was designed for 24/7 duty. ATX is not making much sense for the high power stuff.)

Also, if you have not, check out the large format printer from grassrootsengineering: http://www.grassrootsengineering.com/blog/mymachine/
And look at this video of it in action, printing a kayak in a heated chamber: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odmFO7pJ-RQ

I believe every engineering challenge of a project like this can be figured out with a bit (or a lot) of thinking... but what really concerns me is the "printing logistics"- we can probably all agree that big prints will just take time, days and not hours. So how is this going to be managed? Does one constantly have to supervise the printer? Filament rolls are not endless. And how dangerous is such a machine going to be if something fails? Especially considering the power and high temperatures involved, and the heated build chamber. It goes without saying that this can lead to catastrophic situations. This is not a little desktop printer.
Can it really be built cheaply while still having appropriate safety standards and a build quality that is making the machine truly reliable?
What about resuming prints? I have not read a lot about this and I wonder what sort of options might be existing to print single large parts with pausing.
So really... I think building such a printer is doable... when you think smart even with a reasonable budget. The real question is- Is it really usable? And will it really be what you are looking for?

Hi People!

Lots of great input here. Good luck with the build.

I am finishing a large format printer and I have a few thoughts about mariechuria's comment.

Heating the chamber is no problem, the heated bed will do that all by itself nicely.

You will of course want to have the electronics and motors outside the chamber if possible. A delta printer makes that a bit easier.

Power consumption is not bad if you have insulated well. I used 1/2" R-matte Plus 3 from Home Depot, as it can handle the heat.

I watched the Kayak printing video. Very nice. With heated chamber and proper temperature the layers should be well adhered. I'd like to know his perimeter width and infill settings...

Note that building larger means much more mass, and so you must have slower accelerations to not miss steps, which adds to print time. I had this problem with Raptosaur - I cut the acceleration down to 650 and that fixed my lost steps issues. I may be able to accelerate faster, we'll see.

For larger jobs there needs to be a filament-out sensor and firmware that will detect it, or you can set something in your slicer to pause at a certain height (Cura has this under Extensions).
I know Repetier is planning on supporting a filament out sensor in future, not sure if others have it! I am planning on some jobs that will take more than 1kg of filament, I may combine rolls.

For safety I added two mechanical thermostats - one on the heated bead, and one in the chamber in series - if either trips the heat bed is off. The thermistor in my hot end is well secured, so I'm not worried about that.

I used .9 degree high torque Nema 23 steppers from Phidgets for everything including my direct drive extruder. These run fine on common drivers, even though they are rated for more current. I have small quiet fans on all the steppers so they remain cool.

I recommend planning and modeling everything entirely before starting.

---

My printer: Raptosaur - Large Format Delta - [www.paulwanamaker.wordpress.com]
Can you answer questions about Calibration, Printing issues, Mechanics? Write it up and improve the Wiki!

Quote
Paul Wanamaker
Hi People!

Lots of great input here. Good luck with the build.

I am finishing a large format printer and I have a few thoughts about mariechuria's comment.

Heating the chamber is no problem, the heated bed will do that all by itself nicely.

You will of course want to have the electronics and motors outside the chamber if possible. A delta printer makes that a bit easier.

Power consumption is not bad if you have insulated well. I used 1/2" R-matte Plus 3 from Home Depot, as it can handle the heat.

I watched the Kayak printing video. Very nice. With heated chamber and proper temperature the layers should be well adhered. I'd like to know his perimeter width and infill settings...

Note that building larger means much more mass, and so you must have slower accelerations to not miss steps, which adds to print time. I had this problem with Raptosaur - I cut the acceleration down to 650 and that fixed my lost steps issues. I may be able to accelerate faster, we'll see.

For larger jobs there needs to be a filament-out sensor and firmware that will detect it, or you can set something in your slicer to pause at a certain height (Cura has this under Extensions).
I know Repetier is planning on supporting a filament out sensor in future, not sure if others have it! I am planning on some jobs that will take more than 1kg of filament, I may combine rolls.

For safety I added two mechanical thermostats - one on the heated bead, and one in the chamber in series - if either trips the heat bed is off. The thermistor in my hot end is well secured, so I'm not worried about that.

I used .9 degree high torque Nema 23 steppers from Phidgets for everything including my direct drive extruder. These run fine on common drivers, even though they are rated for more current. I have small quiet fans on all the steppers so they remain cool.

I recommend planning and modeling everything entirely before starting.

One thing I would like to mention Paul, is that if you use proper joints you may be able to increase speeds without stability issues, and reduced weight. 12 ball magnets that are large like that need some good power to actuate. Reducing the weight of the carriages will increase speed. There are a few manufacturers of both aluminum and plastic ball joints that are more precise than the typical traxxass joints. Just a thought.

---

My Personal Blog. Build blog.
[engineerd3d.ddns.net]

Modicum V1 sold on e-bay user jaguarking11

Quote
dailafing
It's ironic that people are asking me to read up on things, when it seems that some people are unable to read themselves.
Can somebody tell me exactly where I have asked what "shielded cable" is?
I do, however, recall asking for an example where shielded cable has been used on such a low-voltage setup.
I believe the chances of inductive interference, or potential crosstalk is minimal on a scale where such low voltage such as as 12V is being used.

New here and just lurking as I consider a RepRap project, but I feel the need to chime in on the above comment.

Stepping motor control is done via relatively high currents and THAT is what causes crosstalk between adjacent wires (fast current changes). Assuming you won't get interference because the voltage is 12V speaks volumes about this thread in general.

speaks volumes about this thread in general

What is this suppose to mean?
I recommended the use of shielded wires for both stepper and endstop switches
because there WAS a real problem in a printer build
AND It is a GOOD practice to use good wiring on LONG wire runs.

Just because dailafing is bumbling along with his printer build
doesn't make the thread bad.

One doesn't know if a thread post is from an expert or a boob!

Beware of responses --- do some surfing / study on the topics?

Are you an RF/ electrical power engineer?

Quote
dclarkm

Quote
dailafing
It's ironic that people are asking me to read up on things, when it seems that some people are unable to read themselves.
Can somebody tell me exactly where I have asked what "shielded cable" is?
I do, however, recall asking for an example where shielded cable has been used on such a low-voltage setup.
I believe the chances of inductive interference, or potential crosstalk is minimal on a scale where such low voltage such as as 12V is being used.

New here and just lurking as I consider a RepRap project, but I feel the need to chime in on the above comment.

Stepping motor control is done via relatively high currents and THAT is what causes crosstalk between adjacent wires (fast current changes). Assuming you won't get interference because the voltage is 12V speaks volumes about this thread in general.

Push Plastic has just announced 3kg bulk reels.
That solves one problem for me.

Quote
cozmicray
speaks volumes about this thread in general

What is this suppose to mean?
I recommended the use of shielded wires for both stepper and endstop switches
because there WAS a real problem in a printer build
AND It is a GOOD practice to use good wiring on LONG wire runs.

Just because dailafing is bumbling along with his printer build
doesn't make the thread bad.

One doesn't know if a thread post is from an expert or a boob!

Beware of responses --- do some surfing / study on the topics?

Are you an RF/ electrical power engineer?

I did not mean the thread was bad (really good advice and entertaining as well). Just that the OP may be over-reaching and ignoring some of the great advice being offered.

Since you asked, I am an EE with controls training but have been working in computer design, testing and networking for the past 20+ years. Have been associated with a company CNC site for quite a while and have been keeping my eye on the RepRap movement on and off for a while as well. I AM doing my surfing and studying before I dive into this, but I just felt I needed to let the OP know that his view of where electrical crosstalk came from was incorrect and a rather common misnomer.

I'll return to my lurking and learning....for now. Again, sorry to intrude....please, continue.

One thing worth noting. As long as the wires for the end stops are not moving much, you can use cat5 cable to eliminate the cross talk. I did this with my printer, the motor wires on my printer are no longer than 14inches, however the end stops are some 4 feet of cable. To keep cross talk at bay, I used cat5. You can even go a step further and crimp heaters and have the cable replaceable. If that is not enough, you can always get sheilded cable. I have been contemplating using 4 pairs of cat5 as motor cable. Although I would use sheilded cat5.

As a function it is a cheap source for high quality cable. Some people braid multiple strands together to achieve high quality speaker wire. More than one way to skin a cat.

---

My Personal Blog. Build blog.
[engineerd3d.ddns.net]

Modicum V1 sold on e-bay user jaguarking11

hi all, new to the forum but very intrested so far, i'm also finding similar 'all about it bumf' that actualy tells zilch about actualy doing it.

ohh.. and i'm at a similar point on my 1000mm x 500x500mm print area lol.

now so far i was under the impresion the nema 17's would run a horizontal axis weather it was 10mm or 1000mm? theres only the time diference of running the distance?

the Z axis, if it drops the print surface down then so much power isnt needed surely? especialy when the forces are spread over turning 2 or 4 screw threads? (just needs enough to raise the empty bed).

multi motor systems, isnt there ways of adding aditional systems run by the controller? even with seperate power supply's per group maybe? a seperate heater bed sytstem would be very easily acheaved by simpley purchasing temperature control circuits and running them as a seperate system.(theres no real timing to the other motors going on is there?)


it's made me stop and think tbh...as in stop dead, i need it to go in one hit,and so far its sounding like nehhh it wont.

side issue reguarding vibrasions, whys no one useing wood? i came across the wood verses the metals in quodcopter building, the wood helps absorb vibration as well as sound, so am i missing the point on 'vibrasions'? is it the actual stepper acceleration/deceleration 'vibrasions' were talking about? (incorperating missed steps perhaps?).

and my final note is, the extruder system is as fast as it will go any ways....so thats where to 'time to' for the rest of the gear..... i'm a noob guys patients please lol.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2014 12:50PM by munchit1.