Prusa I3 - Kit purchase and upgrade?

The Wan Hao does look nice, but you have to consider the price,
390$ for the printer
250$ for shipping (give or take)
+17% VAT
+100$ commision to the local shipping company (don't ask)
= ~850$


Is the Wan Hao worth 850$? In the event the customs won't confiscate the power adapter (which they very much like doing).

P.S. Just checked, they now sell the V2 and don't offer shipping outside the USA.

Hi,

Actualy, I don't know what's your location.
I did not know that will be that expensive for you. Sorry.
About price, some $200 printers do not worth the money, neither a $2500 Makerbot...
It's just about the money you agree to spend.
We know some DIY <$300 printers make pretty good prints.

So what's realy important?
First want to avoid worst buiding choices (or worst components, that's the same),
whatever you build a DIY printer or get a plug and play printer.
For example, we know acrylic frames is beaten by other frames (wood, aluminium, steel, dibond...).
We know that you can't have a good chassis out of theaded rods.
We know what good hotends have (a heat block, a heat break and a proper heat sink) and we know their names : Hexagon, E3D...
We know ACME screws drive more accurately than construction threaded rods.
We know direct drive extruders hates low torque motors.
And so on...

Whatever the road you take, you must pay attention to get good components.
If you want a plug and play (or pre-assembed printer) you must put more money into it, or you get an average printer.
It's the same about kits. There's expensive kits that contains rubbish components,
but most of expensive ones contains better components. Cheap kits uses mostly cheap components.
There's no secret about this. You can't buy Ferrari performance at the price of a small city car.
If you know about cars, nobody can sell you a small city car at the price of a Ferrari.

I talked about the Wanhao, because at reasonable price (USA), it uses some good components, from frame to leadscrews.
If you look closely at it, you can see most of what you want to find in a decent printer.
It's far to be the best printer ever, but it's not a bad example.

++JM

News flash!

So I looked around and I found someone in the EU selling the Wanhao i3 for less then 400EURO (closer to 300 without EU VAT) and less then 100Euro shipping.
It comes with the MK10 extruder - is it any good?

also they have a refurbished one for 20% off and only 6 months warrenty - how about it?

Hi,

Good ! Can you share the EU link ?

The MK10 extruder is the weak point of the Wanhao.
Otherhand, it should be enough to print your first parts and maybe print better extruders later.

++JM

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2015 11:07AM by J-Max.

As you've said, no kit is perfect...

So true

++JM

PS. Thanks for the link, I put it here if there's an interest for anybody : [www.3dprima.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2015 12:42PM by J-Max.

3d Prima is an authorized reseller of Wanhao in Europe. Wanhao Duplicator i3 cost 395€:
[www.3dprima.com]
with free shipping to most EU countries: [www.3dprima.com]

Another interesting option will be this kit:
[createc3d.com]
But I don't know shipping cost to you.

Hey guys,

The Psique weak point are the threaded rods on Z and the 16bits board/A4988 drivers...
Otherhand it have a good steel frame and a good geared extruder with a lite6 hotend !

++JM

Hello
I’m a newby on 3D printers and 3D Printing and after reading tons of forum threads I think I’m going to buy a Psique Steel which seems to be a good compromise given my budget

J-Max said that weak points on this printer are the threaded rods on Z and the 16bits board/A4988 drivers.

I’ve read on a forum that some people had replaced threaded rods on Z with trapezoidal rods screws with good results (eg here)

What do you think of such a modification ? Did somebody tried ?

Given the fact that standard M8 rods have a 1,25 mm pitch and trapezoidal rods have a 2 mm pitch, do you know what parameter would have to be modified ?

Regarding the A4988 drivers, is it possible to replace them by better ones ?

I’m not sure to understand why a 16 bits board is an issue. Could you explain ?

Thanks

Hi guys,

Trapezoidal screws is much better than construction screws.
Idealy you can get Nema 17 motors with a long trapezoidal threaded shaft, so you don't need couplers and you don't have to worry about alignment.
As you don't buy a kit with acme screws, you will need to print matching Xends parts.
You must enter in the firmware the good steps per millimeter for your Z axis, according to the screw pitch of your screws.
Calculation is : steps_per_mm = (motor_steps_per_rev * driver_microstep) / thread_pitch

A 16 bits board can lagg easily if there's too much calculations or a bad connexion with the computer, and they are the early technology.
Actualy 32 bits boards are becoming the standard. You can find good cards at reasonable price (MKS Sbase, for example)
The boards are more powerfull, never laggs even at high speed, it communicates thru Ethernet port... Anything's better.
The Allegro A4988 drivers works well but other recent models works better, like the DRV8825.
The Allegro A4988 is limited to 1/16 microstepping while the DRV8825 allows 1/32 for a smoother and quieter motion.

The MKS Sbase don't need any arduino or drivers (it's an All In One board with 5xDRV8825 on board for only $50.
The quality is good and functionnality are the same as a $200 Smoothieboard. Good deal !
Sure the ArduinoMega+Ramps1.4+DRV8825 solution will cost you about $25 which is cheaper. But at this price you get the lowest quality
Note a single quality Ramps1.4 board from ReprapDiscount will cost you about $60 and original ones about $90...
If you can buy a $25 full kit, of course there's reasons. Some cheap ramps have sometime missing components (!), bad solderings, shorts...
And Arduino Mega clones needs sometimes exotic drivers hard to find, and sometimes bad solderings too.
My advice : even if it's an important point, don't buy a price. To get wrong boards will cost you much more thant to buy the right thing at the start

++JM

Quote
Ecky
I have a Folger acrylic kit(inexpensive) and am very happy with it. This for hobby purposes isn't it and not for production? Hobbies are supposed to challenge you and help pass the time. I had it printing a few calibration pieces and before I was finished with the calibration I modified it for auto levelling and now I've retired and have some time to complete that. For me the whole point of these things is to challenge me and keep the wheels turning and learn some new skills. If you want a show piece, you can buy them built and you'll probably print a few pieces and be bored afterwards. I have the skills to build the plastic one without cracking any tabs but if I were to do it again I would buy the metal one as I think it would be more stable over time. If you get frustrated this forum can help as can the internet community. Or maybe a local hacker club has a 3D printer group.

I second what you said AND I have the Folger Tech 2020 aluminum frame model. I had the technical skills and am also retired so I have the time. I spent just at $300 including the display and haven't spent a dime on upgrades other than the cost of the plastic to print a few upgrades like display mount, Z axis motor extensions. I'm happy that the kit comes with a decent extruder. At least decent enough to make things like this.



and this



Sure you can spend more money on other upgrades to satisfy your cravings, but the kit plus the info in the Folger Tech thread on here is all you need.

Hi guys,

Honnestly tjnamtiw, we don't have the same expectations.
I understand you are satisfied with your prints. If you don't expect much, you've made the right choice.
I compared with other printers and understand what a good 3D printer can achieve.
And this is far away from the print quality you get.
Appreciate there's a lot of people who wants to get a better printing quality.
Sure you can reach it with a cheap printer kit like Folger's, but it will be very costly on upgrades.
I have many examples that shows it's less expensive to buy the right things at the start.

Let's be honnest a minute, and awnser those 3 questions :
Why can we read each year hundreds of topics called "Folger XXX printer, please help !" ? (plus the main Folger's printers topics which are collections of issues)
Why do most of Folger's buyers upgrade their machines ?
Who is to blame, mostly stupid users or rubbish kits ?

++JM

Quote
J-Max
Hi guys,

Honnestly tjnamtiw, we don't have the same expectations.
I understand you are satisfied with your prints. If you don't expect much, you've made the right choice.
I compared with other printers and understand what a good 3D printer can achieve.
And this is far away from the print quality you get.
Appreciate there's a lot of people who wants to get a better printing quality.
Sure you can reach it with a cheap printer kit like Folger's, but it will be very costly on upgrades.
I have many examples that shows it's less expensive to buy the right things at the start.

Let's be honnest a minute, and awnser those 3 questions :
Why can we read each year hundreds of topics called "Folger XXX printer, please help !" ? (plus the main Folger's printers topics which are collections of issues)
Why do most of Folger's buyers upgrade their machines ?
Who is to blame, mostly stupid users or rubbish kits ?

++JM

Yes, everyone's expectations are different. The guy wanted to know what a decent starter machine is so his expectations are probably in line with most newcomers like me. I've had mine 3 months or so. Sure I will undoubtedly get sucked into auto bed leveling, a better extruder when I can see a two fold increase in quality, certainly better carriages, but for a starter, it's a good kit. The main problem people have with the FT is that FT lost Dan, who was their technical guy. They are a small company and evidently didn't find anyone to fix the few mistakes in their manual. Several people on here have pointed out those mistakes and if newcomers took the time to find them by reading the FT loooong thread, they would not have any problems. OR if FT put an addendum in with their kit outlining the changes needed as I suggested to them, there would be very few problems. Of course, all of the PRUSA kits with the parallel rods present an opportunity for the less mechanically inclined to not align the rods and/or bearings properly and end up blaming the bearings.

Feel free to spend as much as you like. For me, I will just go happily along printing what the boss tells me to. It satisfies her so I'm a happy man! And I get to learn some 3D drafting which I avoided for my entire career of 2D design and drafting.
Chaque homme aime quelque chose d'autre

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2015 11:17PM by tjnamtiw.

Dear tjnamtiw,

It's not about spending much to get better, people demonstrate every day you can indeed get a much better printer than the FT, for less money.
FTs is a collection of what you don't want in a printer, especialy the acrylic version. Yours have only the aluminium frame to feel better.
I'm not the only one who explain step by step what's wrong with their technical choices. Make a search on the forum if you like.
Believe me or not, I've already read and experience all I needed about them.

For your information, autoleveling feature is an artefact for people who own a printer that can't stay in shape.

When I was a newbie with only one single printer 3 month experience, I did not gave advice to anyone. Because I did not feel rightfull enough.
I'm afraid your reasoning holds only inside your isolated experience, and you're convicted yours is universal. Realy ?
You own 1 FT printer. Actualy I helped 7 unlucky guys who came desperatley to the fablab to get some help with their FT printer.
FT is not the single chinese parts reseller who sells rubbish printers. During 2 years I worked on many kits from different resellers.
Actualy I did not met any FT printer with no issue. Same causes (weird components) produce the same issues.
Maybe yours is an exception, at the moment... I wish it will work fine (for you) as long as possible.

3 months was just enough for me to make few parts with a properly tuned printer and starting comparison with other guys prints.
Then I saw some printers les expensive than my kit, some from scrap, printing much better parts than mine.
That's exactly what any new guy do experience while visiting us at the fablab. Appreciate there's no ordinary printer owners.
Actualy, I know gardeners, designers, artists, electronics, geeks, house holders, shop tenders... but I can't identify any ordinary profile.
Expectations covers various expectations like technical (warterproof, accuracy...), aesthetic, bulk production...
But with the fully satisfied ones, there's mostly two kind of people : those who bought a kit then bought several upgrades,
and those who sourced parts by themselves and are fully satisfied since the start. Obviously, they spent less money.

To end with FT, I had hot talks with Dan by the past. I'm not surprised he left.
I still dunno if Dan was to blame, or the Marketing dpt of the company. Or both.
What I know, is any component inside FT kits are mostly selected to make money only. It's what FT can buy at the lowest possible cost.
If there were any customer satisfaction required, for few cents more per part, FT can do much better indeed.

Do yourself a favour, get out your room and expericence what other printers are, and what they're able to print.

++JM

I left it for the night to print...

Noogie,

It looks like your printer XY drivers/motors were in default after a while.
Check output current of the drivers and motor temperature.

++JM

Could it be because of a power out or spike?

No, because it should have affect extrusion and Z movement too.
Here, it seems just X and Y have been affected, just like motors/drivers get overheated.
Check pulley attachement to the motor shaft too.
Sometimes, when the motor gets a bit warm pulley attachement get loose.
But probably it won't happens suddenly on both X and Y axis.

++JM

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2015 04:36AM by J-Max.

I'll look into it in the evening,
Thanks!

Quote
J-Max
Dear tjnamtiw,

It's not about spending much to get better, people demonstrate every day you can indeed get a much better printer than the FT, for less money.
FTs is a collection of what you don't want in a printer, especialy the acrylic version. Yours have only the aluminium frame to feel better.
I'm not the only one who explain step by step what's wrong with their technical choices. Make a search on the forum if you like.
Believe me or not, I've already read and experience all I needed about them.

For your information, autoleveling feature is an artefact for people who own a printer that can't stay in shape.

When I was a newbie with only one single printer 3 month experience, I did not gave advice to anyone. Because I did not feel rightfull enough.
I'm afraid your reasoning holds only inside your isolated experience, and you're convicted yours is universal. Realy ?
You own 1 FT printer. Actualy I helped 7 unlucky guys who came desperatley to the fablab to get some help with their FT printer.
FT is not the single chinese parts reseller who sells rubbish printers. During 2 years I worked on many kits from different resellers.
Actualy I did not met any FT printer with no issue. Same causes (weird components) produce the same issues.
Maybe yours is an exception, at the moment... I wish it will work fine (for you) as long as possible.

3 months was just enough for me to make few parts with a properly tuned printer and starting comparison with other guys prints.
Then I saw some printers les expensive than my kit, some from scrap, printing much better parts than mine.
That's exactly what any new guy do experience while visiting us at the fablab. Appreciate there's no ordinary printer owners.
Actualy, I know gardeners, designers, artists, electronics, geeks, house holders, shop tenders... but I can't identify any ordinary profile.
Expectations covers various expectations like technical (warterproof, accuracy...), aesthetic, bulk production...
But with the fully satisfied ones, there's mostly two kind of people : those who bought a kit then bought several upgrades,
and those who sourced parts by themselves and are fully satisfied since the start. Obviously, they spent less money.

To end with FT, I had hot talks with Dan by the past. I'm not surprised he left.
I still dunno if Dan was to blame, or the Marketing dpt of the company. Or both.
What I know, is any component inside FT kits are mostly selected to make money only. It's what FT can buy at the lowest possible cost.
If there were any customer satisfaction required, for few cents more per part, FT can do much better indeed.

Do yourself a favour, get out your room and expericence what other printers are, and what they're able to print.

++JM

WOW, I will leave you to play God to all the newbies and just sit back and enjoy the show. My 50 years in electrical and electronic engineering evidently mean nothing in your ego-bloated mind.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2015 08:05AM by tjnamtiw.

Hi guys,

Sorry if I upset you, it was not intentional. Maybe My english is not good enough to make myself properly understandable.
Obviously I don't believe I'm god, I just give some time sharing experience to help people.

I don't want to be rude. But even if you were a headchief at NASA, you still have 3 month experience on a single weird printer.
I suggest you to go meeting skilled users and their printers, because I believe you will probably learn a lot. That was friendly.
Appreciate that what I said about cheap kits is not popping up a megalomaniac head, this is shared buy most of the skilled reprappers.

Understand that I don't talk about what I own only and think it's good just because it brings fun/satisfaction to me.
I allow myself to give advices because I have some experience with different printers, configurations and components.
Just right now on my desk I have 8 different premium hotends for a cost that overtakes the price of your printer.
It's not about the price tag, I experienced Folger's extruders and hotends too. It's just about reprap basics.
Even ordinary people who upgrades Folger's stuff by proper components have seen instantly the benefits. It's like between night and day.
I'm afraid anyone with some comparison points would probably not recommend any cheap kit.

Please dont' take my comments wrong. When you'll get more experience with 3D printers we'll probably share the same thoughts.
And you definitely won't consider yourself as a god for so little knowledge

Friendly yours ++JM

Quote
J-Max
Hi guys,

Sorry if I upset you, it was not intentional. Maybe My english is not good enough to make myself properly understandable.
Obviously I don't believe I'm god, I just give some time sharing experience to help people.

I don't want to be rude. But even if you were a headchief at NASA, you still have 3 month experience on a single weird printer.
I suggest you to go meeting skilled users and their printers, because I believe you will probably learn a lot. That was friendly.
Appreciate that what I said about cheap kits is not popping up a megalomaniac head, this is shared buy most of the skilled reprappers.

Understand that I don't talk about what I own only and think it's good just because it brings fun/satisfaction to me.
I allow myself to give advices because I have some experience with different printers, configurations and components.
Just right now on my desk I have 8 different premium hotends for a cost that overtakes the price of your printer.
It's not about the price tag, I experienced Folger's extruders and hotends too. It's just about reprap basics.
Even ordinary people who upgrades Folger's stuff by proper components have seen instantly the benefits. It's like between night and day.
I'm afraid anyone with some comparison points would probably not recommend any cheap kit.

Please dont' take my comments wrong. When you'll get more experience with 3D printers we'll probably share the same thoughts.
And you definitely won't consider yourself as a god for so little knowledge

Friendly yours ++JM

J-Max,

It was gracious of you to apologize. Just an independent observation... I don't think it was a language problem. Your post would come across as genuinely arrogant in any language, and it definitely offended tjnamtiw. Offended me too.

I've noticed from many of your posts that you seem to have something personal against FolgerTech. I've bit my tongue so far... everyone is entitled to their opinion. Allow me to give my own opinion now, based on six weeks as an owner of this fine printer.

All of my experience so far has been using the Ultimaker 2, Taz 5, and printerbots at my office. I've spent most of my time on the Ultimaker 2, which is a fine printer. (It ought to be, for $2500!) I've also learned quite a bit from people more knowledgeable than myself on the art of 3D printing. There are definitely a number of tricks, but not hard to pick up and I honestly don't think the learning curve is THAT steep.

Two months ago I decided to shop for my own, and decided to go the DIY route. I initially compiled the list of parts for a RepRap Prusa and priced them out on eBay and Amazon. Then I discovered the FT2020, which had all the same parts, but at $50 cheaper than I could do by myself. I can't say that any of the parts in the kit are different than ones I would have picked out myself. The only upgrades I made were to add an LCD/SD card reader and an E3D lite6 hot end.

My experience so far with the FT 2020 is extremely positive. I'm not expecting top of the line stepper motors or bearings, but then again I spent 1/10 the cost of a good retail printer, and half the cost of a genuine Prusa i3 kit. Everything that was included in the FT2020 works well. One small part was missing, but the customer service at FT was very responsive and the new part was in my mailbox a few days later. My decision to upgrade the hot end to a $35 E3D lite6 was not based on some perceived shortcoming, but based on the good reputation of E3D, and hey, it's only $35. My philosophy when going into this was to get a low cost printer up and running, and then put my money into the parts that I thought would make a difference. So far, I haven't seen the need to upgrade much of anything. Sure, an Ultimaker 2 has much higher quality parts, but the parts that FolgerTech has sourced are just fine. The fact that it does work so well is a credit to the RepRap community who have put together a great open source design and software.

So how does it print? Extremely well. From my experience with the Ultimaker 2, I can honestly say that the UM2 prints are no better than my FT 2020. Not just my opinion. I've brought some examples of my prints into work, and my coworkers have been equally impressed. Sure, the UM2 can print a little faster, but my FT2020 is for home use, and I don't mind waiting a little longer.

J-Max -- I don't know your personal experience with FolgerTech or what informs your experience, but I think your advice could be a little more nuanced. We get it, you don't like FolgerTech. For sure, their 2020 kit isn't for everybody, especially for those unwilling to tinker a little to get things working. For me, their kit saved me a ton of time trying to source every little part, and I doubt the quality is substantially different than the parts I would have procured on my own. If they are selling these kits only for the money, they can't be making much of it since as a package, it is pretty dirt cheap. And everything is upgradeable. Having a complete printer working allows me to study it up close and see which upgrades could make a difference. For a DIYer like myself, that is fairly satisfying.

A few recent examples from my FolgerTech 2020, printed yesterday. Not necessarily the best to come off this printer, just the most recent.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2015 01:43PM by elkayem.

removing dupicate post.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2015 01:47PM by elkayem.

Quote
elkayem
A few recent examples from my FolgerTech 2020, printed yesterday. Not necessarily the best to come off this printer, just the most recent.

[attachment 66626 IMG_0903.JPG]

[attachment 66629 IMG_0907.JPG]

Very nice!!!!

Ok.

Folger is the best company ever, nobody had issues with them or their machines.
Cheap printers are as good as any other printer.
And people who say the opposite are daft liers. So I am.
Delighted ?

++JM

J-max,
I'm not trying to attack you. Since you keep saying there are better, cheaper printers than the folgerech, I'd like to know. I'm about to buy the FT 2020 one, simply because of all the cheap kits out there, it's the only one I can find any significant information on.
Thanks.

I suspect JMax's hatred for Folger Tech is based on his earlier experiences with the threaded rod kit, not the aluminum extrusion kit and also with the earlier, flawed extruder, not the newer spring loaded one. You'll find a LOT of information on the FT 2020 printer on [forums.reprap.org].
Many of us would highly recommend the 2020 as a good starter kit to learn and grow with. There's a lot of help on that loooong thread and not a lot of bad mouthing. Come join us.

Oh come on !

I have no hate about Folgertech, carry on glasses and read again since the start !
I say you can buy better than kits with weird components at comparable price.
Folger is known iconic about weird components kits, by the past and still today. 2020 or any of their printers.
And yes I encountered their 50 cents 100% plastic (included shaft) no spring feeder with grinder gear. For nostalgics :


What about their delta kit meant to have 60° aluminium feets built at 63° ? A lie ?
If any motor selection guide ask to keep a percentage of torque margin, why Folger (and others) don't ?
You believe a hotend with no heatbreak is good ? How interesting !
You believe a heatsink mounted after a mounting bloc is any good ? Great !
Will you say that small heatsink is so efficient here it can cool the cumulated thermal mass of the mounting block plus the motor ? Any engineer will enjoy...
Sadly I could enumerate a lot of technical points here. From cable management to guides diameter...
I'm affraid it's already pretty enough to make an opinion.
It's just about weird components, not a company or a specific kit.

If you're lucky enough, and according to what you say, you're lucky ones, you can like/enjoy your printer.
Appreciate some people known real issues, you can't be that blind. Oh, you don't trust me ?
Type "Folger issue" in the general search of the forum and enjoy. Months won't be enough to read all.

When I share my experience helping people with weird kits (some were Folger's),
that was far to be people who did stupid things with their kit.
Some printers just could not work properly. Make your mind by yourself :
- missing hardware (in an undamaged parcel)
- broken parts or blocked motors (in an undamaged parcel)
- Ramps with missing components or unproperly soldered
- 2 out of 5 dead drivers
- 8mm rods that are 7.8mm out of the box
- 8 out of 12 LM8UU running like sand whatever the amount of grease you can put inside
- balls so small that it can't stay inside the LM8UU
- bent (9°) threaded rods
- built in firetruck siren instead of the fan in PSU
- asthmathic cooling fans
- loozy threads in hotend parts
- no awnser/solution from the resseller.

To be honnest, I havent seen all of that in the same printer kit, but I've encountered FT kits cumulated 3 of this issues.
Behind your keyboard, it's easy to be blind.
But I'm talking about real people helpless, who trusted their seller and components wondering what they did wrong.
I remember a student girl crying coming because she could not get any awnser from the seller after 25 days and 10 messages. (That was Folger, sorry...)
She recieved at last an awnser wher she opened a dispute on paypal and recieved a smart "why didn't you contact us before to open a dispute" ?
Guys, this is real life, real experiences and real people.

I haven't by a FT kit myself, but I started with a weird kit, I know what dealing wiht wrong kits is.
Unfortunately I never met any enthousiast FT kit user in real life. Probably people with no problems just don't ask for help.
I appreciate Folger have enthusiast customers, like other companies does.
You guys are one of them, and I'm sincerely happy for you.

You're lucky enough to get working mecanical parts. Be aware when the first sand come in gears, it will be different.
For example, if you get for any reason hard points in transmission your low torque motors will fail.
If your cooling fan go down getting a bit lazy, your extruder will warm up, will clogg and can also damage the motor.
That's just what I experienced with my own first kit, that was unpleasant and expensive to replace.
I saw this 3 times on different kits including one FT's.

Just understand my experience learn me what weird components can do. That's why I warn people to avoid these kits.
Better components are well known, it's not difficult to select a kit with proper ones if you try. (si a list in my first message in page2 of this topic)
To me it's not wise to recommand them, and I understand some people may have a different point of view until they experience the same.

I shared all I could. There's nothing more to take.
I don't want to talk anymore, please leave me now out of this

++JM

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2015 04:44AM by J-Max.

Quote
J-Max
Oh come on !

I have no hate about Folgertech, carry on glasses and read again since the start !
I say you can buy better than kits with weird components at comparable price.

...

I don't want to talk anymore, please leave me now out of this winking smiley

Hey J-Max, I have no interest in picking a fight with you. You seem very knowledgeable with plenty of experience to share, and a great resource for this forum. Certainly it's fair to call out a company if you see them providing parts that are more shoddy than their peers. And I take it you have had the opportunity to compare FT's parts side-by-side with those from other vendors, so your opinions didn't come out of a vacuum.

To be fair, you have expressed a strong dislike for FT on many posts in this forum, and with a hoard of FT2020 enthusiasts on the next thread over, them's fightin' words. For example, earlier in this thread you knocked FT and it's users:

Quote
J-Max
Folger's kits are rubbish unless you're not a demanding person !

and

Quote
J-Max
I'm afraid Folger's one of the worst kit money can buy

It's scattered throughout this forum, I'll just include one more example from a different thread here.

Quote
J-Max
There's a lot of things to hate about the Folger kit.

I'm not saying your reasons aren't valid for disliking their products, or that "Folger is the best company ever, nobody had issues with them or their machines." Just saying that it might go over better if you used a little more nuance. Many of us start with these kits because they are extremely cheap, and it saves a lot of hassle trying to source all the parts from the very beginning. They are also a good starting place for people who are DIYers who aren't afraid to roll up their sleeves. Sure, in the long run it may end up being more expensive for people who upgrade every part in the machine to something with higher quality, compared to starting with the quality parts from the beginning. But that's also a great opportunity to gain a fair amount of experience. So saying that these kits should be avoided at all costs may not be the right advice for everybody. I think many of us over on the FT2020 thread are having a lot of fun learning about these machines and finding creative ways to make them better. One thing that might help: If you know about another kit at a similar price point ($270) that includes higher quality parts, you could suggest it. I searched and couldn't find one, even ones with acrylic frames.

Ok, stepping off my soapbox now... I have to say, J-Max, I have learned a fair amount from your various posts on this forum, and look forward to learning more from you...