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Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)

Posted by stam 
Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 16, 2010 06:37AM
Hello fellow Reprapers!!! smiling smileysmiling smiley

My name is John and I am now finishing my studies in Greece.

For many months I was thinking on building a Mendel but always the cost was a massive problem... Now I managed to save up about 450-500€ and I thought that is a nice idea to spend my summer on that project!

First of all I started looking for reprapers in Greece, but no luck, as it seems, if I manage to build it, I'll be the first one to have a mendel in Greece!!!

Then I started looking for the vitamins and I just want to give you a picture of the prices here.
The same part,from the same company (RS Online) has three different prices with the highest price on the Greek version of the shop. For example the BZP cap screw,M3x20 (1 box of 100):
Germany €8,45
UK £11,05~€13,28
Greece €19,64

And the price in Greece doesn't include VAT (which is 23%) so the price goes to the extremelly: 24,15€ just for 100 M3x20 cap screws!!!!!! angry smiley angry smiley

Anyway, then I decided to buy everything from Europe and just have to pay the extra shipping costs.
I found a cheap store Mendel-parts which probably from there I'll order Belts, Bearings, Nuts & Bolts, Bars, Motors, Thick & Thin Sheets and I calculated that with the shipping till here will be 300€. That sounds ok, I don't thing I'll be able to get some cheaper prices...

Then the electronics problem occur. Nowhere in Europe I can't find the makerbot electronics, but if I buy everything from the states the custom here will charge me enormous amounts of money.
Being lucky here, some really nice folks from irc informed me that is possible to have for electronics an arduino (mega or even 328) and for stepper motor drivers the Pololu A4983 which is ~12€/each. That probably will be the way I'm gonna follow. I haven't yet found available the optoendstops but I'm still looking. So the cost of electronics will be at most 100€.

Another 120€ for 5kg of ABS (including shipping) will automatically put me out of budget, and I still haven't the printed mendel parts...

The prices on ebay are a bit high, because of the big demand and small supply of parts, but I can't afford it.
I found some "Laser Cut Replacement for RepRap Mendel Printed Parts" at about 210€ (with shipping costs) but I don't know if they will last till I print a whole set of parts to replace them... They look so fragile.
Afterwards I decided to build ta mcwire and print the parts and then build the mendel, eventhough it gonna take days to print the parts, but only the cost of mcwire equals my budget. Here is an example:
That shop, [shop.grrf.de] , has almost everything I need to build a mcwire, but the shipping cost is extremelly big, 1 kg 53.87 €, 3 kg 61.44 €, 5 kg 65.52 €, 10 kg 81.49 €
and the parts are quite heavy. I know that some of you may suggest to go to a local hardware store and buy the parts, but for example the acrylic parts, here in Samos Island, Greece is really hard to find etc. x(x(

I really want to build a mendel and I'm trying to save some more money but I can't really...
The only viable sollution as it seems to me, is to buy the LaserCut parts, save from everywhere some money, like don't buy the thick sheets for the electronics, buy 2kg of ABS etc.

Oh and I just remembered the extruder cost....eye rolling smiley

Does anyone have any ideas on what can I do? I'm quite sad with how the thing are going and I want some alternative ideas... sad smiley


Have a great day from sunny Greece! smoking smiley

John

PS1: If I'm posting in the wrong sections please move the topic wherever it should be smiling smiley
PS2: Sorry for the huge message...
PS3: The last couple of days I joined the irc room and I have to say that I felt more than welcome on that community!smileys with beer In only two nights I learned so many things that I haven't learned in months reading the wiki etc... My nickname in irc is stam_greece...
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 16, 2010 09:14AM
First of all, welcome to the forum!

Just wanted to say that you don't have to use the cap screws if they're expensive to source locally. Personally I use cheap hex bolts like this one. The m4x40 bolts only set me back about 2.5€ for 25 at my local hardware store, and work just fine. (A few places is a bit tight fit).

You can use wood instead of acrylic if you can't find it. The thick sheet is really simple and fast to make if you have a jigsaw and a drill press, and you can also make them by a regular hand saw and a drill. Wait until you have the electronics and only drill the holes you need, then you'll save a lot of drilling.

We also have 25% tax (if the value is above 25€ excluding shipping) when importing to Norway. But there is an 14€ fee to pay the tax as well, so importing something costing 30€, in the end cost 51€.

Good luck with your build, and keep us posted about your progress!
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 16, 2010 11:39AM
Budget seems to be a daily topic :-)

The probably cheapest RepStrap for people without significant workshop capabilities is the Wolfstrap. € 70,- (Germany) for all mechanical parts sans extruder: [reprap.org] [reprap.org] . On top of that you need motors, electronics and one extruder, all of which can be re-used for the "right" Mendel.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 16, 2010 03:23PM
Thank you guys for the replies!!! >grinning smiley<

I wasn't aware of the existence of WolfStrap... It seems a really good and cheap solution compared to the mcwire...thumbs up

Does anybody know how long it will take to print the mendel parts? It says on the wiki: "Threaded rod 2x approximately 350mm M10; X-Y-axis (I started out with M5s, which I cannot recommend. The machine will move too slow) " but I can't really find any other occurrence of the speed subject...



I'm a bit happy again! smiling smiley smileys with beer smiling smiley
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 16, 2010 05:08PM
It depends somewhat on the stepper motors you have. Some can run 5000 steps/second, others more. 5000 steps/s / 200 steps = 25 revolutions/s. Applied to a M10 thread, this is 25 s-1 x 1.5 mm = 37.5 mm/s = 626 mm/min. With a belt-driven drive you can go ten to twenty times faster, as one revolution moves the belt a full perimeter of the gear. Please note this assumes a sufficiently fast extruder and is an educated guess anyways, as I don't have a machine running, yet.

I'm currently building a WolfStrap myself and to be honest, I don't care much about how fast this thing will be. First I have to build the frame, then solder the electronics, then get the motors to run at all, and so on. With all this there's a lot to learn and it wont's matter wether I have to run the RepStrap for another 20 or 200 hours until I can upgrade to a better mechanism.

That said, it should be easy to equip a WolfStrap with belt-driven drives in case you can get hold of the gears and belts. Or have manufactured them as first pieces ...


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 18, 2010 02:29PM
Thanks for all the replies Traumflug! smiling smiley

I have a problem with my broadband connection but now I'm back again!

I'll follow your idea by making a Wolfstrap and print the parts for the mendel!smileys with beer

You provided some really nice math info up there! thumbs up

I just have a question. You mentioned before that the extruder has to be really fast, but the whole structure doesn't move really fast, so why is this necessary? Or you mean when you have a belt driven system?

So basically the only printed parts we gonna need is the extruder parts! Are you going to select the
Geared Nema17 Extruder Driver from Adrian or Geared Nema17 Extruder from Wade ?

Have a great day!
John
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 18, 2010 11:15PM
Quote

I just have a question. You mentioned before that the extruder has to be really fast, but the whole structure doesn't move really fast, so why is this necessary? Or you mean when you have a belt driven system?

The faster the machine can move, the faster the extruder has to be. Reading this forum, most people have belt driven machines and are limited by extruder performance. With a threaded rod design, printing speed will be limited by the stepper motor max. RPM.

BTW., yesterday I've found a picture of a belt driven WolfStrap: [forums.reprap.org]

Quote

Are you going to select the Geared Nema17 Extruder Driver from Adrian or Geared Nema17 Extruder from Wade ?

I'll use my Dremel as my first toolhead ;-) Adrian's and Wade's are often mentioned to perform equally well. Looking at the build page of each of them I'm wondering what's the difference between both. Can't be much :-)


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 19, 2010 01:46PM
Thanks for that link Markus!
I wasn't aware of that topic! Some seriously effort is being done there on the wolfstrap to run on belts!

I read the topic (with the help of google translate of course!smiling smiley) and fellow repraper Stoffel15 mentions that it took him 26 hours to print just one frame-vertex!! (he used a M5 threaded rod) eye popping smiley

In fact I did a bit of reading and one of the main differences between wade's and andrian's extruders is that andrian's is "# Designed to work at higher extrude speeds than the standard Mendel extruder, giving shorter build times."

How far on your Wolfstrap have you reached?
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 19, 2010 02:08PM
Quote
stam
... one of the main differences between wade's and andrian's extruders is that andrian's is "# Designed to work at higher extrude speeds than the standard Mendel extruder, giving shorter build times."

I think you are a bit confused here. The two geared NEMA 17 stepper driven extruder designs by Wade and Adrian are both intended to allow high extrude speeds. Both are significantly faster than the older DC motor driven extruder design (which was also originally Adrian's design).

See the Choosing a Geared NEMA17 Extruder topic for discussion of the (relatively small) differences between Adrian and Wade's current (Geared NEMA 17 stepper based) extruder designs.



Jonathan
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 19, 2010 02:19PM
Thanks Jonathan for that! smiling smiley

I couldn't really understand the differences between those two extruders! Now I'm gonna read that topic and I'll try to find out!

The forum and the wiki are huge that I'm lost, everyday I discover new and important topics/pages!

Cheers from Greece,
John
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 20, 2010 02:00AM
John,

We have one user,
[reprap.org]
who translated the main page into greek:
[reprap.org]

If you add a note here, AlexCY should get it.
[reprap.org]

Let me know if you'd like me to create a Greece RepRap User Group and announce it using the blog. (I have a backlog of 5-6 new RUGs to create.)


-Sebastien, RepRap.org library gnome.

Remember, you're all RepRap developers (once you've joined the super-secret developer mailing list), and the wiki, RepRap.org, [reprap.org] is for everyone and everything! grinning smiley
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 20, 2010 02:38PM
Hello Sebastien! smiling smiley

I didn't know that the main page was translated in Greek! Tomorrow I'll drop a message to AlexCY to see if he has a fully worked printer etc! smiling bouncing smiley

It would be great if you could create a new rug for the Greek reprapers! thumbs up

I don't know how many we are, probably not many sad smiley, but I believe it might/will help the future reprapers to have a reference point!smileys with beer

Have a great day,
John
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 21, 2010 07:49AM
Quote

How far on your Wolfstrap have you reached?

Just finished building the bottom frame with the moving table on top of it. The frame went a bit bigger than designed by Wolfgang, the wood pieces are 650 mm and 500 mm long. This way, the table will never need more space than the bottom frame and you can put the machine right to the wall.

Instead of the angle pieces, I used long wood screws 5.0x50 mm to connect the slats directly. Pre-drilling the holes is a very good idea. If that turns out to be not stiff enough, I'll reinforce later.

When mounting the drawer linear bearings, precision alignment turned out to be difficult. I had to rely on careful measurement, the flexibility of the frame has to account for the remaining inaccuracies. These cheap bearings can't be disassembled ... anyways, the table now moves by touch of a single finger easily.

Markus


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 22, 2010 03:23PM
Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> anyways, the table now moves
> by touch of a single finger easily.

Those are good news!! smileys with beer

Do you have uploaded any pictures on flickr or somewhere else so we can ourselves??confused smiley

I am just finishing all the searching about everything and probably till Friday I'll order everything!!smoking smiley

Did all the sizes of the wooden parts on the wolfstrap page on the wiki were correct or you discovered any mistakes etc?

Cheers from Greece,
John
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 22, 2010 11:50PM
Quote

Do you have uploaded any pictures on flickr or somewhere else so we can ourselves?

Sorry, I can't, because I don't even own a camera. :-/

Quote

Did all the sizes of the wooden parts on the wolfstrap page on the wiki were correct or you discovered any mistakes etc?

Roughly, all the sizes fit. For the exact sizes, I measure them as needed. The bottom frame is finished, now I started with the Z axis. That done, I'll fit the X axis in between. Yesterday stepper motors arrived, so I can build that right with the driving rod.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 23, 2010 02:06AM
That's really good news Markus! smiling smiley
It's ok with the pictures, as long as you don't have any problems, probably your wolfstrap looks like the one on the wiki!!

I'm a bit jealous! When I order all the parts, I'll have them delivered in my parents house, because where I live some of the parcel might be lost sad smiley I'll be there at 15/7 and start the whole project! spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

You will have threaded rod for Y and belts for X,Z or threaded rod for all the axis?
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 23, 2010 02:12AM
You don't want or need belts for the Z-axis!

The X and Y axis on the other hand will only be fast enough with some kind of belt/chain drive. Using threaded bar for these axis is just simply too slow!


Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 23, 2010 03:05AM
You are right Bob!smiling smiley
I was confused with the axis! tongue sticking out smiley
John
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 24, 2010 10:34AM
John

There is an easy way not confused with the axis!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2010 10:34AM by Stoffel15.

Mfg
Wolfgang
Aller Anfang war schwer - Wolfstrap Reprap-fab.org Meine Meinung

Erfahrungen kann man leider schlecht weiter geben, die muss man selber machen.
Attachments:
open | download - koordinaten.jpg (247.7 KB)
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
June 24, 2010 02:47PM
Thanks for the photo Wolfgang! smiling smiley

Now I am sure I will remember the axis correctly!! smileys with beer

Cheers from Greece!
John

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2010 02:48PM by stam.
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
July 05, 2010 12:57PM
Hello there!

It's been a while since my last post.

I was trying to save up some money and I finally have ordered everything!!! smiling bouncing smiley

The next week I hope all the shipments to be delivered to my place...

The plan is to build a wolfstrap and then slowly slowly print the parts for a mendel!

My only problem is that I run out of money and I don't have any pulleys. So I might try first to do the bar/stud version of wolfstrap so I can print the pulleys and then turn it to belts version. eye rolling smiley

Hm, know that I'm really thinking it I don't have a ready extruder but I hope to be able to use something like that till I print a proper one...

When everything arrive I'll go and buy all the woods that the wolfstrap needs...

I'm a bit worried to be honest, I've spend 450€ and I if I fry/broke anything then it might be difficult to replace it sad smiley

Anyway, next week I'll post pictures of everything that have been delivered!

Cheers from Greece,
John
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
July 06, 2010 05:17AM
glad to see you doing well, John.

The carthesian robot part of the Wolfstrap here is about finished. The last two weeks I worked a lot on getting steppers running, including refinements of the firmware. Next step will be to hook up these steppers to the robot, so I hope I can see some real 3D movements this week.

Cheers,
Markus


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
August 02, 2010 11:17AM
Hello fellow reprapers!!! >grinning smiley<

Finally I have almost everything here except the mendel parts sad smiley

Now some of my problems if anyone knows a possible solution to help me...moody smiley

First of all my setup will be one Arduino Duemilanove (328P), 4 Pololu Stepper Driver Boards, 3 OptoEndStop Boards and one Temperature Board (just a resistor and a capacitor basically).

I've succesfully tried the optoendstop boards and the temperature board with that demo code.

Then I have uploaded to my arduino some demo codes founded on the wiki and all the 4 pololu drivers seems to work fine!!! I did some minor adjustments of the potensiometers on the pololu driver to adjust the current that goes to the motors and everything seems nice!! Also I have attached some heatsinks to avoid frying them!

Now the first problem is that I can't get running the FiveD Arduino firmware. I downloaded the firmware and via the Arduino v18 software I uploaded it to my board. Then I connect everything correctly, fire up the power, and run the reprap host software. Then when I choose for example to move X axis the program freezes.
It seems like there is no communication between the board and the reprap soft... Any ideas???

Then I tried that firmware which probable is not 5D but still I wanted to test everything (GCode_Interpreter.pde). I uploaded it successfully and I have movement on every single axis and the optoendstop work. Then I decided to connect the extruder with the nicrome wire and the ntc thermistor attached.

I fired up everything and I pushed some abs through the extruder and seemed that everything was ok. But afterwards I discovered that the temperature sensor board didn't work at all, and the temperature was stacked to some weird values, either 0 or 255. So that resulted the firmware to have the extruder (nicrome wire) ON for a long time and the whole extruder barrel etc thing melted sad smiley


Anyone has anything to propose?? To sum up the main probs are the fived firmware on arduino 328p and the value of the thermistor which with the demo code provided on the wiki works fine.

Also here I uploaded a couple of photos of my setup!

Thank you all!

Cheers from Greece
John
Re: Trying to build the First Mendel in Greece (Brainstorming...eye rolling smiley)
January 24, 2012 06:28AM
I don't know in what stage you are on your project. But if you are still looking for plastic parts consider doing what i have done. Use expanded polysterene and mdf for your parts. The first material is very easy to cut but not very solid. Think which parts take much load and make them from mdf. I' ve done this and it works quiet fine. Now I' m printing my own parts. reprapgreece.blogspot.com
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