Ormerod 1 prints does not look good.

Hello,

my Ormerod 1 costs my nerves. Unfortunately I have no picture of my problem yet. I first thought it was a problem with the filament as I used green PLA shortly for the first time, but it seems that this PLA is only affected by the most. First the ABS printing looks normally. Using PLA especially the green one I have a problem with one side. It tends to warp and it looks awful like there is too much extrusion for example. I am printing now a case for my PanelDue with my Ormerod 2 and it looks perfect. So it is no problem with the filament. The problem occurs mostly on the area with the lowest y-axis-value. So it could be fan relevated? I shortly exchanged the fan with a little bit less air flow. Could this be the reason?
I also have to mention that the nozzle was heated up two times way too far for two different reasons: At first the connection was weak so the temperature readings jumped between normal and low so the Duet board heated permanently. It could have not been for long luckily, but in panic I powered off the Duet and did not watch for the current temperature. I guess something between 270°C and 300°C. Secondly the Duet itself broke so the temperature readings got stuck at 160°C and the Duet was heating permanently. This must have happened at a crashed print or shortly before the crash so I do not expect that the temperature was way too high. But as I was maintaining the printer and checking for damages the connection of the heater cartridge broke. I only had a 6mm cartridge as spare so I slightly drilled the heatsink block to 6mm. (I really do not recommend this as it nearly broke the hole for the thermistor). For safety reasons I also exchanged the thermistor.
So should I use a better fan? Or is maybe the nozzle damaged? My Ormerod 2 uses a cheap Chinese nozzle with 0.4mm and the quality is much better.
As I am not able to level the bed accuracy by hand (the front part is way too high. I had to use longer screws at the back to compensate this with the cost of printing high) and also circles are still not circles I decided to exchange the y-axis to the Ormerod 2-version. I am also considering to exchange the nozzle with the cheap Chinese one. But I have no idea yet what about the heated bed. There are no front legs that supports the ribbon cable. I could modify the front legs or I could switch to a MK3 Aluminium heated bed. In this case I could gain 1mm printing height .

Best regards,

Sven

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2015 05:53AM by Treito.

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Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

If the hot end heatsink remains cool to the touch when the hot end is at operating temperature, then the fan + ducting is good enough. Warping on the low-Y side can be caused by backwash from the fan. If you can feel backwash, fit a fan inlet duct such as this [www.thingiverse.com].

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Using this parts ends in nearly no noticeable airflow even though the heatsink block is not getting hot either. The strange about this is that ABS looks great except for the warping, but I was not able to test it with PrintBite as I recently found the right parameters for my Ormerod 2. My bed temperature was way too high. I would not have expected that as other comparable surfaces needs about 110°C. For me and my Ormerod 2 95°C is the right choice.

One question and this is the reason why I asked for a damaged nozzle: Normally the nozzles tends to "ooze" or how I should say. This is the cause why we enable retraction in our slicing software and Simplify3D also offers the option "Coast at end". Is it possible that the nozzle got damaged in a way that this "oozing" is higher than normal? Maybe my nozzle size is bigger now for what reason ever for example 0.55mm.

I found some examples:

Does look good, doesn't it?


So here is fault one:


Fault two was not easy to catch, I hope you can see it:

(Who can guess the keyboard type? )

As comparison my Ormerod 2. This print was in an early state and one of my first prints with a different PLA (eSun) so the settings were not optimized (Solid layers are too less and the coast at end setting was wrong).

Here you can see the missing solid layer, but the details are good.


One side (coast at end setting not optimized):


And a complete different look especially if you have both parts in your hands:

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
Using this parts ends in nearly no noticeable airflow even though the heatsink block is not getting hot either. The strange about this is that ABS looks great except for the warping, but I was not able to test it with PrintBite as I recently found the right parameters for my Ormerod 2. My bed temperature was way too high. I would not have expected that as other comparable surfaces needs about 110°C. For me and my Ormerod 2 95°C is the right choice.

I don't think fan backwash is the problem, cooling is, esp. for this model (3DBenchy) you will need lots of it (or print more than one with distance between)

The bottom of the model will warp a bit no matter how you print it - I got a ABS proff. print of that model from one of my filament suppliers (3Deksperten.dk), same thing, the bottom was warped, hard to prevent, even on BuildTak

My first try of that print (standard ormerod cooling setup) made the boat rock so badly under the print that it nearly made me vomit (sound of Sailer Kim laughing)

Ad more cooling and lots of it, esp. in the direction of the front end of the boat and the print will be just fine

Edit: picture added

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One question and this is the reason why I asked for a damaged nozzle: Normally the nozzles tends to "ooze" or how I should say. This is the cause why we enable retraction in our slicing software and Simplify3D also offers the option "Coast at end". Is it possible that the nozzle got damaged in a way that this "oozing" is higher than normal? Maybe my nozzle size is bigger now for what reason ever for example 0.55mm.

If you nozzle has become oversize the problem would be all over the model, but you can measure that will a 0.5mm drill bit, also over extrusion should show at the starting perimeters already and you can adjust that on the fly

Besides that the nozzle could be damaged (not circular or damaged with a file as not square to the bed) - you can test that by heating up the nozzle and extrude (free fall) the filament, if it fall down in a straight line the nozzle should be fine

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(Who can guess the keyboard type? )

Its an apple right? - do I get a cigar? :-)

Erik

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2015 07:57AM by ormerod168.

Boah apple? Do you want to insult me? Seriously I am really not a friend of this "bite into apple" products. I would never buy any product of this company. I do not understand the hype for this brand, but I am fair enough to say if anybody is happy with these products so it is good for him.
No, no I have another fruits as keyboard.

BTT
The newer fan with the blue light provides a less airflow than the last one. So I was considering that it could be a fan related problem. My Ormerod 2 uses a totally other nozzle holder and the fan is nearly the same but not that thick. This results in even a less airflow and also due to the design the airflow at the nozzle exit is less compared to my Ormerod 1. So this is really strange.
The pictures does not show all problems, but especially the aft part of the ship is a good example for the main problem with this printer. The structure details gets lost somehow, but only at some areas especially with the highest y-axis-values. That is why I am considering that the airflow (or the backwash) may be too high.
I am considering to add a second fan for my Ormerod 2. I have no idea yet how to provide a second fan for my Ormerod 1. Especially I do not know if I should spend the time to develop a fan holder or just swap the nozzle to the same one like the Ormerod 2 using the fan connection of this one. The design is not ready, but prepared, more or less.
Really strange thing is that my ABS printing looks much better than the PLA printings. I guess this is caused by the missing second fan as ABS profits from less cooling. (This is for my Ormerod 2).
But you saw the difference between my two printers?

I found a better example. I guess I will get nightmares this night:


Looking normal


really bad


even the side is bad


That is the main problem which appears nearly on every part. BTW: This is also eSun (labeled as 3DPrima, but eSun), so this print can be compared to the red one as it is nearly the same filament except for the color.

OTT Cool, the print of my PanelDue case just finished. I hope this will fit somehow as I do not know if my design of the TouchPanel is the same one from the designer of this part, but it looked good. And I used this green PLA.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
Boah apple? Do you want to insult me? Seriously I am really not a friend of this "bite into apple" products. I would never buy any product of this company. I do not understand the hype for this brand, but I am fair enough to say if anybody is happy with these products so it is good for him.
No, no I have another fruits as keyboard.

So no cigar for me? - dang!, there goes my up in smoke tour :-)

Quote

The newer fan with the blue light provides a less airflow than the last one. So I was considering that it could be a fan related problem. My Ormerod 2 uses a totally other nozzle holder and the fan is nearly the same but not that thick. This results in even a less airflow and also due to the design the airflow at the nozzle exit is less compared to my Ormerod 1. So this is really strange.

Yes, that seems a bit strange, but anyway, sure looks like a way too hot print for me, what I visualize from you pictures is the nozzle wading through the newly laid filament, you should be able to see this while printing

Yes I have the exact same fan mounted to cool the nozzle only and find the output to be way under the original fan but sufficient to cool the heat sink, have no problems with melted filament going up the tube

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I am considering to add a second fan for my Ormerod 2.

Do you self a favor and consider this very professional well thought out cooling ring model from thingiverse, notice the flow simulation, the air stream is very well concentrated, in fact it is so precise that you can use it to pin point and blow out single candle on a Christmas tree form a distance of 30cm

Problem is to fit it to the Ormerod, its to high and too wide to fit right in, x-runner bearing gets in the way so you will have to lower the nozzle and by that loose printing hight - or move the z-extrusion and extend the nozzle out some distance from the x-arm and then you will get a accuracy problem because of the greater leverage between the center of the bearing running on the smooth rod and the contact point of the bearing running on the x-arm vs the distance between the center point of nozzle and ditto smooth rod - a cure for that could be to move the bearing running on the x-arm up a bit to get the same leverage, but then the extruder gets in the way

Anyway, after many test I find this model to be Lord of the Cooling Rings and will do my best to shoehorn it to my printer, mounted with a 0.24A 5115 centrifugal blower it will supply more cooling (from the top that is) than you will ever need

The proof of the pudding for a well designed cooling ring is that you do not hear the blower rev. up as you mount the blower and it don't




[www.thingiverse.com]

"This is the DiiiCooler, the most powerful cooling ring in the thingiverse And it could blow your head clean off!"

Thanks for the warning Clint - yes it is very powerful but I really don't think so :-)

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Really strange thing is that my ABS printing looks much better than the PLA printings. I guess this is caused by the missing second fan as ABS profits from less cooling

Yes besides the warping problems I find ABS usually makes for a better print, with PLA you can control the warping by cooling, to a point you can do the same thing with ABS but on the flip side you risk running into DE-lamination problems

Erik

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ormerod168
So no cigar for me? - dang!, there goes my up in smoke tour :-)

Hey this is much healthier. Believe it or not I have never smoked anything (or taken illegal drugs). I swore this as I was twelve and 26 years later I did not break it.

Quote

Yes, that seems a bit strange, but anyway, sure looks like a way too hot print for me, what I visualize from you pictures is the nozzle wading through the newly laid filament, you should be able to see this while printing

Yes I have the exact same fan mounted to cool the nozzle only and find the output to be way under the original fan but sufficient to cool the heat sink, have no problems with melted filament going up the tube

I know you may have the same fan (AKASA changed the series some time ago slightly, so it may differ a little bit).
So now we have a little problem with the language. I cannot get your sentence. What is my nozzle doing? Ah okay got it, but what is the reason? Too deep at that layer height? Problem with the z-axis? How can this happen? At least I could reduce the filament temperature. I choosed temperatures at that time from the supplier of the green material. He suggested to print the first layer with 230°C and the other layers with 210°C. Meanwhile I reduced these temperatures slightly. As I changed the thermistor and the Ormerod 1 is using a 1k-Duet-board "only" it may happen that the temperature readings of the hot-end may be faulty. Could this be a reason? This could be a hard task to test as I have a temperature measuring thing (sorry, I have no idea how I should name this) which can be connected to a multimeter. Theoretically it should provide 1000°C but there is some heat-shrink tube which was already melted as I tried to measure the hot-end. Okay I could kill it totally as I already bought a spare part. (The connector is slightly broken too, I have replacement here, too, but I found one device which works well with this connector).

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Do you self a favor and consider this very professional well thought out cooling ring model from thingiverse, notice the flow simulation, the air stream is very well concentrated, in fact it is so precise that you can use it to pin point and blow out single candle on a Christmas tree form a distance of 30cm

Remeber, my Ormerod 2 uses a Chines hot-end. So you ring model will not fit, but I was considering to design a controlled air flow like other designs.

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Problem is to fit it to the Ormerod, its to high and too wide to fit right in, x-runner bearing gets in the way so you will have to lower the nozzle and by that loose printing hight - or move the z-extrusion and extend the nozzle out some distance from the x-arm and then you will get a accuracy problem because of the greater leverage between the center of the bearing running on the smooth rod and the contact point of the bearing running on the x-arm vs the distance between the center point of nozzle and ditto smooth rod - a cure for that could be to move the bearing running on the x-arm up a bit to get the same leverage, but then the extruder gets in the way

Like I said I have a totally other design and my nozzle is a little bit deeper than the original one. My heated bed saves some little space so this height difference is nearly compensated. Okay not compared to your Ormerod 2 as you do not use the heat spreader to save space. I have a 3mm Aluminium heated bed for my MK2. At least this is really nice.

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Yes besides the warping problems I find ABS usually makes for a better print, with PLA you can control the warping by cooling, to a point you can do the same thing with ABS but on the flip side you risk running into DE-lamination problems

This is of course a side effect but bridges for example looks much better in ABS. Maybe this is caused by the missing 2nd fan, but if I am printing using ABS you cannot seperate bridges from the rest as it looks similar. Using PLA I always have a difference.

Best regards,

Sven

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2015 11:42AM by Treito.

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Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
..So now we have a little problem with the language. I cannot get your sentence. What is my nozzle doing? Ah okay got it, but what is the reason? Too deep at that layer height? Problem with the z-axis? How can this happen? At least I could reduce the filament temperature. I choosed temperatures at that time from the supplier of the green material. He suggested to print the first layer with 230°C and the other layers with 210°C. Meanwhile I reduced these temperatures slightly.

If you, whilst printing see movement in surface of the former laid down layers, then your print is too hot, the former laid down layers are warping up, the nozzle will have to wade though this and is dragging the hot filament up behind it - if you watch the nozzle closely its easy to see the problem - more cooling is the cure...or give the layers more time to cool (with the hot nozzle away)

Erik

You mean the previous layer is not solid enough when the next layer is printed? And then the next hot layer comes and melts down the previous layer? Something like this? Why not simply reduce the temperature? Hmm so as they are some black spots at the green part it could mean that my temperature readings from the nozzle are definitely wrong and too low so may print temperature is maybe too high? Could be that a reason?
Many thanks for this help.
Do you want to have another mystery regarding my Ormerod 1? For now I was afraid to take a look at the source, but I have not seen something like this before. I am seriously considering to keep the motors. rods, aluminium parts, cables and electronics and to exchange all other parts completely including the nozzle. Hmm, but the other nozzle uses exact the same thermistor.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

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Treito
You mean the previous layer is not solid enough when the next layer is printed?

Exactly

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And then the next hot layer comes and melts down the previous layer? Something like this?

Yes, squeezing the previous layer down where there is no way to go but up around the nozzle (or if printing outer perimeter, to one side) - also the hot layer will stick to the nozzle and drag up the hot filament behind it

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Why not simply reduce the temperature?

Yes but its not always that easy as there is/are (whatever) a limit to how low you can go without layer separation

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Hmm so as they are some black spots at the green part it could mean that my temperature readings from the nozzle are definitely wrong and too low so may print temperature is maybe too high? Could be that a reason?

I was not able to print a decent copy of that boat until I added a lot of cooling, don't think it can be done so don't worry, you are not alone at this, but yes its always a good idea to check if the temperature is showing the correct numbers

..and the color of the filament can make a difference, a darker filament will receive more heat from from the nozzle

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Do you want to have another mystery regarding my Ormerod 1? For now I was afraid to take a look at the source, but I have not seen something like this before. I am seriously considering to keep the motors. rods, aluminium parts, cables and electronics and to exchange all other parts completely including the nozzle. Hmm, but the other nozzle uses exact the same thermistor.

Just make sure you still have one working printer before you do that - oh the horror of not being able to print a printer!
BTW, I prefer the more elegant style and cabling of the Ormerod 1

Erik

Okay do not be angry as I will not quote.
As my Ormerod 2 does not show the problems like my Ormerod 1 I do not guess this is related to a cooling problem. Of course I am talking about using the same filament. Like I said my MK2 prints the green one nearly perfect. Okay my PanelDue case suffers from a little bit warping But I am afraid that I have to reprint this case As it would have been better if I would have mirrored the case before as the connection is on the wrong side. But this you only see afterwards.
One thing about printing the boat: My Ormerod 2 is only successful if I use Simplify3D. If I use anothe program I have no chance to print this boat correctly.

I had a big problem regarding the working printers: My Ormerod 1 failed with the second broken Duet failure and I did not want to risk the "good one" from the shop here so I had to activate the Ormerod 2. If there would have been an error at the electronic I only wanted to risk the cheaper Duet board. Luckily it was confirmed afterwards that my electronic was fine. I did not expect anything else, but until today I do not know why I got this error. The only thing I know is that I was not the only person with exactly this problem and without any explanation. But as I wanted to commission my Ormerod 2 I saw a terrible mistake: My nozzle was too high. Luckily I had a broken print of a x-carriage where the whole sensor part area was missing (and therefore the x-carriage was not that deep) so I was able to use this as X-carriage replacement. The sensor board went to the nozzle holder with only one screw. The printing looked really funny. The X-Axis rod nearly touched the print bed. Disturbing.

BTW regarding the design: I do not find any optical differences which would make a difference in my eyes. The placement of the PSU is a better solution. If flipping the Y-axis to the other side was a good idea I do not know, maybe not as the settings in the config.g does make less sense becuase the triggering for the Y-homing switch seems not to be changed in practically even though it is now done by a completely different part. So the homing position is not at zero, but far away from it in the negative area.
Additionally I was never a friend of the ribbon cable, If only one or two conductors fails it may smoke and burn as the other conductors may not handle the additionally current. As far as i know this kind of connection is not allowed here in Germany. BUT the new solution is far away from beeing better. There is no guidance for the cable. Now I need about 1 meter space in the y-direction because of the cable for the heated bed which is going somewhere like it wants to go. Bad idea. Really bad idea.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
BUT the new solution is far away from beeing better. There is no guidance for the cable. Now I need about 1 meter space in the y-direction because of the cable for the heated bed which is going somewhere like it wants to go. Bad idea. Really bad idea.

There is actually a solution, but it may need some further customisation to fit the latest O2 models: [github.com]

I saw this link some times ago but I never considered using it for the Ormerod. My new design will use a cable chain. I saw it often for Prusa I3 printers for example and it is for me a normally and suitable solution. I already thought og a cable chain as I wrote the thread before, but I have no idea where to fit it seems to be not enough space.

So here comes the next mystery of my Ormerod 1:

Has anybody seen something like this before? Especially the amount of spans?
My guesses:
70% a bearing failure or
20% the washer is disappearing
10% some kind of obstacle near the homing position

So for the moment I stopped using my MK1 But as you see it would not make much sense. Maybe I really should consider reprinting all parts as Ormerod 2 version. Totally disassembling it. Assembling it using the new parts and hoping for the best. I still do not know why the MK1 cannot print round circles. The Ormerod 2 does print them. Okay not perfect but much better as the 1.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
Has anybody seen something like this before? Especially the amount of spans?
My guesses:
70% a bearing failure or
20% the washer is disappearing
10% some kind of obstacle near the homing position

Look like aluminium shaving to me
No its not bearing failure, the bearing should be good for 20000 hours
More likely the outer ring of the bearing has been partially blocked, by the spacer at the top or from being forced down in the plastic of the printed part at the lower side

A standard 3mm spacer is wider than the inner diameter of the outer bearing ring and quite thin (and soft) so better to use something else, I drilled out a 3mm nut with a 3mm drill bit and used that as a spacer and changed the screw to a countersunk one

Also did grind down a used hacksaw blade and mounted that on the aluminium arm with loctite to get a harder surface for the bearing to run on, also changed the nut for a slice of metal to make for easier adjustment



Erik

Just try putting 2 of your boat models in the slicer spaced 50mm or more apart and see whether your prints turn out any better. The second print allows a longer time for cooling between every other layer.

Dave

@Erik So if the material is from the bearing it is for me a failure of the bearing. Or in other words I would have to replace the bearing, so it would be inside my 70%. It is always how you look at things. Btw the dust or spans are very fast replaced once removed. And I took especially a look at the used washers and so on as I first wanted to use bigger washers at another place (Extruder) to see that this could block the bearing. So I will have to replace the bearing and I would have to triple check if the bearing runs freely. Why you did not use a printed spacer?

@Dave This could be indeed a great idea. Maybe I could also place them nearly together or side by side to see if the position is the problem or maybe a backwash as one piece could protect the other one. But for the moment I have stopped printing with my MK1. I have to decide first how I handle my problems in sum. If I try to repair them step by step starting with the probably faulty bearing or if I totally disassemble it and mutate it to an Ormerod 2, older Version. Please keep in mind that also the front is somehow too high and I cannot absolutely find the source as I still think this would be the plywood parts and also the circles are not round. I am using Iamburny's belt clamps and an y-belt-tensioner. I may compare the x-axis belts of both printers as my Ormerod 2 nearly prints circles perfectly round.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
@Erik So if the material is from the bearing it is for me a failure of the bearing. Or in other words I would have to replace the bearing

No, if it is aluminium shavings, and it sure looks to be, then it will be from the aluminium x-arm - are the dust particles magnetic?

There is no aluminium in the bearing, the inner and outer ring and balls are made of hardened steel, the part holding the balls in position and the dust seal are made of softer steel - also as far as I can see from the picture, the bearing has worked its way into the x-arm, mostly at the top and that indicate that the bearing has not been mounted square to the x-arm (the first contact point of the bearing against the x-arm has been the upper edge of bearing)

I would think the bearing is OK if no dust has found its way past the seals (a dust proofed seal do not touch the inner ring as a water proofed seal would do, so very small particles can get in there)

Quote

Why you did not use a printed spacer?

Plastic is too soft to carry the very small area of the bearing inner ring when you tighten the screw, even the nut underneath will make a dent in the plastic and make adjustments difficult, thats why I replaced the part with a "nut" made out of a slice of steel

Erik

Damn you are right. Sorry, I am angry that my expensive X-arm is damaged now. How could this happen and how do I avoid this?
There is a groove at my X-arm! My poorly X-arm.

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Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

I may have found a reason why the pulley may have been blocked. Please take first a look at the picture:

The upper one shows the original pulley and the lower one the pulley I have bought for my Ormerod 2.
The original pulley have a smaller inner circle, but the outer circle is bigger and that was probably the cause. The hole of the washer is of course slightly bigger than the screw so the washer can be moved a little bit off-center. This was probably enough to touch the most outer area (circle) and as I tighten the screw the washer blocked the pulley. With the design of the Ormerod 2 pulley the risk that something like this happens is much lower. So Erik already wrote something in this direction.
My very poor X-arm.
So what shall I do now?

Edit: Aaaahhh this cannot be true. My Ormerod 1 must be cursed. Guess what? I just wanted to add a new pulley design based on the design from Erik, but I may found a sweeter solution and what happens? The X-carriage broke. To be more precise the part for the pulley broke. Okay this is not the first time as there is a designing issue from Iamburny's design. Meanwhile I use the original design as it is more stable, but this cannot be true. Is anything working on this printer? Two broken Duet boards. Two times overheating. The supplied fan only worked one month. The heater cartridge broke. The front part of the bed is too high and cannot be lowered. Circles sre not circles. Did I forgot something? This cannot be normal where is the hidden camera?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2015 03:34PM by Treito.

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Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Would suggest you try what O168 did and glue a hacksaw blade (sutably prepared) to the arm Replace the Bearing and make sure it is free to rotate correctly

Doug

Quote
Treito
Damn you are right. Sorry, I am angry that my expensive X-arm is damaged now. How could this happen and how do I avoid this?
There is a groove at my X-arm! My poorly X-arm.

Don't worry about it, if you glue a hacksaw blade to that x-arm for the bearing to run on as I did you will be better of than before the damage, the x-arm will hold forever and the damage will be hidden behind the saw blade that is much wider than the track from the bearing

You will of cause have to file down the messed up parts of the aluminium so you will have a flat and true surface to glue (loctite) the saw blade on

A standard hacksaw blade is 0,6mm thick, so you will be adding that width to the x-arm, if that is to much (if you run out of adjustment for the bearing) you can replace that with a smaller bearing - or modify the printed part, I used a 10mm and did not run out of adjustment, BTW, the original supplied bearing was 9mm

..and you will have to grind the protruding teeth of the hacksaw blade away so it sits flat on the x-arm, either on both sides or just from the edge

Don't worry, be happy, see it as a splendid opportunity to make the printer even better! :-)

Erik

Quote
Treito
I may have found a reason why the pulley may have been blocked. Please take first a look at the picture:
[attachment 67667 DSC00265_small.JPG]
The upper one shows the original pulley and the lower one the pulley I have bought for my Ormerod 2.
The original pulley have a smaller inner circle, but the outer circle is bigger and that was probably the cause. The hole of the washer is of course slightly bigger than the screw so the washer can be moved a little bit off-center. This was probably enough to touch the most outer area (circle) and as I tighten the screw the washer blocked the pulley.

M3 washers usually have a convex side and a concave side, because of the way they are stamped. Always put the convex side towards the bearing.

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Hmm now it is too late. I probably did not watch out for the side.
But as you can see, I have no luck with that printer so I still do not know what to do.

@Erik I wanted to use a 10mm pulley now and I added the 9mm pulley as distance so I should end up above the damage but probably I may not pass the Extruder motor. Okay maybe if I use a countersunk screw like you did or a Philips screw where the head is not that high. This should do the job. But I do not thing that a hacksaw blade will improve the optic of the Ormerod. Maybe it supports the bearing to run better. Who knows.
The printer is really cursed. See the edit above.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

I suspect that seized bearing was the reason for your holes not printing round. It would put a lot of drag on the X axis and cause backlash (the same as a loose belt).

Dave

Maybe the part of the x-carriage was also a little bit loose. That is the weak part of Iamburny's design. As soon as I manage to print a spare part in ABS, I can test it. But do you think that could be really the source? I will also check the X-axis belt. Maybe I can handle it better now. But I am still sad. My poor X-arm.

Edit: Okay of course bthis would be possible, but I did not notice that straight lines are not straight. However I did not look for this especially so it may be possible and it may explain why I had to reprint some parts for my Ormerod 2.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2015 11:41AM by Treito.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Quote
Treito
Edit: Aaaahhh this cannot be true. My Ormerod 1 must be cursed.(

Could be just that, maybe you should sacrifice a sheep or something - sure did the trick for Erik the Red on his journey to Iceland, sacrificed a sheep against his father's will he did (was his lunch) but it did quire down the angry sea and he got many likes on FacePalm as it was called in those times..

My advise would be to start with a small rodent and work you way up until you get some result, a dirty stinking rat or something, nobody care about those...or a chicken, oh no that won't do, Disney got their backs for sure..

...and don't even think of anything with big wet eyes or nice hair, those animals are protected by PETA!

no sheep will be safe tonight...

(LOL)
Erik

Quote
Treito
...But I do not thing that a hacksaw blade will improve the optic of the Ormerod..

What's not to like? :-)



Just made an extra, if you want it its yours







Erik

I would not be able to remove the teeth so easily. At work we may have some old metal ties as we send big boxes. Maybe there is some rest piece.
Now my Ormerod 2 behaves very strange. This is an outbreak!

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

Really strange. The file was broken after stopping it because the ABS did not stick anymore to the bed and additionally the wire of one stepper motor had contact issues. I should replace the original cables which were delivered with the motors as the connectors are wrong.
Here is a picture of the broken X-carriage and the groove. This area is intended to break.

At my Ormerod 2 you can also see slightly traces of the bearing even though it runs completely free.

---

Slicer: Simplify3D 4.0; sometimes CraftWare 1.14 or Cura 2.7
Delta with Duet-WiFi, FW: 1.20.1RC2; mini-sensor board by dc42 for auto-leveling
Ormerod common modifications: Mini-sensor board by dc42, aluminum X-arm, 0.4 mm nozzle E3D like, 2nd fan, Z stepper nut M5 x 15, Herringbone gears, Z-axis bearing at top, spring loaded extruder with pneumatic fitting, Y belt axis tensioner
Ormerod 2: FW: 1.19-dc42 on Duet-WiFi. own build, modifications: GT2-belts, silicone heat-bed, different motors and so on. Printed parts: bed support, (PSU holder) and Y-feet.
Ormerod 1: FW: 1.15c-dc42 on 1k Duet-Board. Modifications: Aluminium bed-support, (nearly) all parts reprinted in PLA/ ABS, and so on.

When I received my X arm kit from DaveK,it included a self-adhesive stainless steel shim to stick on the arm, for the bearing to run on. I am glad now that I fitted it!

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Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].