Ormerod 2 Hot end temperature problems

Hi,

I have finished assembling my new Ormerod2. I have a problem whit temperature reading.

In fact one of the first test is the "Check temperatures".
Following the istruction i send at Ormerod 2 the command M105 (using Arduino serial monitor or using Pronterface programs) return from Ormerod 2:

ok T:B: 18.1


My Duet version is 0.6.
This is my config.g in sd card:

*************************************************************************************************
; Configuration file for RepRap Ormerod 2
; RepRapPro Ltd
;
; Copy this file to config.g if you have an Ormerod 2
; If you are updating a config.g that you already have you
; may wish to go through it and this file checking what you
; want to keep from your old file.
;
M111 S0 ; Debug off
M550 PMy RepRapPro Ormerod 2 ; Machine name (can be anything you like)
M551 Preprap ; Machine password (currently not used)
M540 P0xBE:0xEF:0xDE:0xAD:0xFE:0xED ; MAC Address
M552 P192.168.1.14 ; IP address
M553 P255.255.255.0 ; Netmask
M554 P192.168.1.1 ; Gateway
M555 P2 ; Set output to look like Marlin
G21 ; Work in millimetres
G90 ; Send absolute corrdinates...
M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
M906 X800 Y1000 Z800 E800 ; Set motor currents (mA)
;M305 P0 R4700 ; Set the heated bed thermistor series resistor to 4K7
;M305 P1 R4700 ; Set the hot end thermistor series resistor to 4K7
M569 P0 S0 ; Reverse the X motor
M92 E420 ; Set extruder steps per mm
M558 P2 ; Use a modulated Z probe
G31 Z0.8 P600 ; Set the probe height and threshold (deliberately too high to avoid bed crashes on initial setup)
M557 P0 X45 Y0 ; Four...
M557 P1 X45 Y190 ; ...probe points...
M557 P2 X215 Y190 ; ...for bed...
M557 P3 X215 Y0 ; ...levelling
M556 S78 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Put your axis compensation here
M201 X500 Y500 Z15 E500 ; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
M203 X15000 Y15000 Z100 E3600 ; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
M566 X1200 Y1200 Z30 E1200 ; Minimum speeds mm/minute
M563 P1 D0 H1 ; Define tool 1
G10 P1 S-273 R-273 ; Set tool 1 operating and standby temperatures
*************************************************************************************************

I believe that at startup the Ormerod reading the sd card. In fact sending the command "M503" this is the return from ormerod 2:


; Configuration file for RepRap Ormerod 2
; RepRapPro Ltd
;
; Copy this file to config.g if you have an Ormerod 2
; If you are updating a config.g that you already have you
; may wish to go through it and this file checking what you
; want to keep from your old file.
;
M111 S0 ; Debug off
M550 PMy RepRapPro Ormerod 2 ; Machine name (can be anything you like)
M551 Preprap ; Machine password (currently not used)
M540 P0xBE:0xEF:0xDE:0xAD:0xFE:0xED ; MAC Address
M552 P192.168.1.14 ; IP address
M553 P255.255.255.0 ; Netmask
M554 P192.168.1.1 ; Gateway
M555 P2 ; Set output to look like Marlin
G21 ; Work in millimetres
G90 ; Send absolute corrdinates...
M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
M906 X800 Y1000 Z800 E800 ; Set motor currents (mA)
;M305 P0 R4700 ; Set the heated bed thermistor series resistor to 4K7
;M305 P1 R4700 ; Set the hot end thermistor series resistor to 4K7
M569 P0 S0 ; Reverse the X motor
M92 E420 ; Set extruder steps per mm
M558 P2 ; Use a modulated Z probe
G31 Z0.8 P600 ; Set the probe height and threshold (deliberately too high to avoid bed crashes on initial setup)
M557 P0 X45 Y0 ; Four...
M557 P1 X45 Y190 ; ...probe points...
M557 P2 X215 Y190 ; ...for bed...
M557 P3 X215 Y0 ; ...levelling
M556 S78 X0 Y0 Z0 ; Put your axis compensation here
M201 X500 Y500 Z15 E500 ; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
M203 X15000 Y15000 Z100 E3600 ; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
M566 X1200 Y1200 Z30 E1200 ; Minimum speeds mm/minute
M563 P1 D0 H1 ; Define tool 1
G10 P1 S-273 R-273 ; Set tool 1 operating and standby temperatures


ok


Sending M115 this is the return from ormerod 2:


ok
FIRMWARE_NAME:RepRapFirmware FIRMWARE_VERSION:0.78c ELECTRONICS: Duet + Extension DATE:2014-09-18
ok


The wire and the termistor is ok. See the attached file to see that in open circuit the termistor change the value if heated whit a finger.




In the section "Troubleshooting" i have read this:

"If you have a Duet where the hot end temperature always reads -273C when the thermistor is connected, or some other very low temperature, there may be a fault with your Duet due to the variability of manufacturing. You do need to test that this is not just a broken thermistor or poor wiring, though. The quickest way to test is to disconnect the thermistor wires from the thermistor, and connect a 100k resistor to the thermistor wires. With the wiring disconnected from the Duet, check the resistance of the wires at the housing that connects to the Duet – it should be 100k ohms; this tests the wiring. Connect the housing to the Duet, then turn on the Duet and check the temperature. It should be around 25C. If it reads below 15C, we will replace the Duet under warranty. This fault is caused by manufacturing differences within each ARM processor at the heart of the Duet; the Analogue to Digital Converters (ADCs) on board the ARM processor can give quite variable readings at the limit of their sensitivity."

Can you help me ?
Regards from Ivan...... Florence (Italy)

You must to select a tool at least once (send T1 to your printer) before M105 outputs any head temperatures. It's probably a good idea to add this command to the end of your config.g file.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2014 03:59PM by zombiepantslol.

I'm sorry but I do not understand. The Hot end does not heat. The config.g is the original from ormerod 2. Not reading the cooling temperature does not heat. (I believe).

Yes, it won't heat if no tool is selected, because then the firmware does not know what to heat. Just open the Arduino serial console (or Pronterface) and send "T1". Then send "M105" and you should get a temperature reading. If you don't, check your log for error messages and post them here.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2014 04:32PM by zombiepantslol.

OK.

I send:

T1 (ENTER)

receive

OK

I send:

M105

receive

ok T:-28.3 B: 17.4

Have you got the Duet powered up from the PSU, or is it just getting it's power from the USB interface?
On my Ormerod 2, the bed temperature always reads correct with just the USB attached, but the hot end temperature usually reads -273, although I have seen it read other random values.
Once plugged in to mains and the fan starts spinning, the hot end reads normal (actually reads about 15 degrees too low at room temperature but better at normal extruding temperature)

Quote
MikeyD
Have you got the Duet powered up from the PSU, or is it just getting it's power from the USB interface?

The results with only USB and with PSU is the same.

The bed is OK always and heated properly. Is only the hot end does not work.
I run exactly the instructions as on the web.

Hi Mak64

It looks like this is NOT a thermistor problem; your testing of this is quite clear, and the wiring looks correct. I have updated the instructions regarding the problem with the temperature responding as 'ok T:B: 18.1'; see: [reprappro.com]

If the hot end end is disabled, the Duet needs to be reset (press the reset button on the Duet) to re-enable the hot end, for the temperatures to be reported again. Alternatively, you can send 'M562 P1' to reset the temperature fault (see [reprap.org] ).

The one thing you don't show is where the thermistor is connected to the Duet. If you have connected it in the wrong place, you will not get a reading. Can you send me a picture of the Duet board, with the wiring in place? Check the wiring placement: [reprappro.com] and [reprappro.com]

It's also possible that a poor connection is causing the problem. If you have a Duet with no keyed headers (a little plastic part around the pins that aligns the wiring connection) the crimp in the loom housing can easily get distorted. The crimps in the housings are standard Molex KK 2.54mm crimps (eg [uk.rs-online.com] ), and are a ramp-style connector. If the housing is not put on the pins straight, the ramp (the 'curly' part of the crimp, looks like a @) can get bent back, and a poor connection can result. You can remove the crimp from the housing quite easily, and bend them back so they have better contact. You can also bend the pins on the Duet a little, to improve contact. You can, of course, replace the crimps and housings with anything you deem better, such is the nature of a kit build.

The usual method to test (as specified in the troubleshooting guide you quoted) is to connect a 100k radial resistor to the wiring loom. This may work, but not if the wiring is connected in the wrong place, or the crimps are not making contact with the Duet pins.

If you don't have any spare resistors, you can also test by disconnecting the heated bed wiring loom (thermistor and power wire), and connect the heated bed thermistor wiring to the hot end pins on the Duet. This has a resistance of 10k ohms, and should report a hot end temperature of around 84C. DO NOT turn on the hot end - there will be no control over the temperature. If it is significantly lower than

We test Duets in-house with pre-crimped resistors, like this:


This picture shows how to plug a resistor into the Duet. Then connect via USB, and check the temperatures - both hot end and heated bed should read around 25C.

It's also possible that pins of the Duet are shorting out on the metal case, and causing the strange readings - it's possible that you have not trimmed all of the pins underneath the Duet and 5V regulator board. See the 4th, 5th and 6th step here: [reprappro.com]

I think, most likely, you DO have a Duet that under-reads, and it will need to be replaced. But please do the tests as described above - if one of proves to be the solution, it will be much quicker for you.

Ian
RepRapPro tech support

Hi Ian,

This is the image of Duet with the wiring inplace.




The pin #2 of J12 is correctly to chassis (vssa)





The molex contact is ok.
In fact for misure the termistor impedence i have insert 2 pins in the connector and i measure the impedence connecting tester to retiring pins. (see first image to forum in corner hight left).
An y-axis motor cable had this problem I fixed it. (the noise of the motor vibrate).

The tests described in the darkened had already 'made.
I believe that the board is wrong.

I can also search bug in board (i downloaded chematic) but is too long work.

If you decide to return it, I would ask you first to test it.

Regards

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2014 07:54AM by Mak64.

I note that after you have sent the T1 command, you do get a hotend temperature reported, but it is very low (-28.3). If I understand correctly, this is typical of a poor tolerance Duet ADC, and I believe RRP will replace the Duet on boards that have that issue. It can however be compensated without replacing the board if you prefer (look up the relevant threads), and as a way to be able to carry on with commissioning immediately, you should be able to persuade the firmware to activate the hotend heater by warming the nozzle with a hair drier before resetting the board so the Duet reads a sensible temperature. (When the firmware sees such a low reading it assumes a disconnected thermistor and so will not activate the heater).

Dave

Quote
dmould
I note that after you have sent the T1 command, you do get a hotend temperature reported, but it is very low (-28.3). If I understand correctly, this is typical of a poor tolerance Duet ADC

I also think that. The comunication whit analog/digital converter. I did not find threads to workaround that, and if is do it, what with new version future firmaware ?

Okay, it looks most like a board problem. If I check the resistance between the E0_TEMP pins on the board, of a working board, I get 1.5k ohms, where you get 976 ohms. I'm not entirely sure this a good diagnostic test, though. Did you try connecting the heated bed thermistor to the hot end thermistor pins?

Another test you can do is to try a number of different value axial resistors; replace the thermistor in the wiring loom. Resistors of the following values should equate to the following temperatures:

100k ohm = 25C
47k ohm = 42C
10k ohm = 84C
1k ohm = 173C
470 ohm = 212C
220 ohm = 261C
100 ohm = 321C

Remember to reset the board, or send the command to reset the temperature fault, if the hot end reports with a fault.

If the board is at least responding to the different resistor values, it will report the temperature accurately at working temperature, ie 200C. In that case, you can use another workaround, apart from heating it with a hair dryer. If you are using the latest firmware, you can set the temperature to come on at startup. Change the last line in config.g from 'G10 P1 S-273 R-273' to 'G10 P1 S25 R25'. There is a 10 second pause after startup before any heater is seen as having a temperature fault, so by turning on the hot end, you will put some heat into it, and get it into the correct range, and avoid the temperature fault.

However, only try this if the temperature is reported reasonably accurately using the resistors. Otherwise, there may be NO CONTROL over the hot end heating, which will be potentially disastrous!

I have sent you an email regarding replacing the board under warranty.

Ian
RepRapPro tech support

If you don't wish to return your Duet board (e.g. because shipping to/from the UK will take a long time), there are a few other solutions (apart for the hair dryer) that can be used:

1. As your board is not reporting -273C when cold, you can install firmware from my fork or zpl's fork and correct for the error using the M305 P1 Hxx command. Hopefully, this feature will be included in the official firmware soon.

2. You can also correct for it by adding a high value resistor (~300K) in parallel with the thermistor.

3. If you are an experienced electronics engineer, you may be able to persuade RRP to let you replace the 1K thermistor series resistor on the board by 4K7 without voiding the warranty.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
droftarts
Okay, it looks most like a board problem. If I check the resistance between the E0_TEMP pins on the board, of a working board, I get 1.5k ohms, where you get 976 ohms. I'm not entirely sure this a good diagnostic test, though.

No, my impedence value between the E0_TEMP pins on the board is 1.5K also.
The image where you see 976 ohm is for demostrate thet is no short circuits from pin 1 of J12 and chassis.

Quote
droftarts
Did you try connecting the heated bed thermistor to the hot end thermistor pins?

I tried end i send "M105"
Returned

ok T:74.8 B: -59.9

but i don't start the hot end because i don't know if this is correct.

This evening other test but i wait the board for replace it. This test only for try to know.

Connecting the heated bed thermistor (100k) to the hot end sensor connector the value is 74.8°C. Setting the Heat to 80° (6° more the reading sensor) the hot end start. I want try with a trimmer for find the value of ambient temp.

Quote
Mak64
Connecting the heated bed thermistor (100k) to the hot end sensor connector the value is 74.8°C. Setting the Heat to 80° (6° more the reading sensor) the hot end start. I want try with a trimmer for find the value of ambient temp.

The thermistor and firmware is set up so that while the temperature is reasonably accurate when hot (150 deg +), the hotend temperature is not likely to be accurate at ambient temperatures (though it should not be as low as you are seeing). The bed temperature is a bit more accurate at ambient temperatures. From memory, with a true ambient temperature of 22 deg in the room, my bed reports 21 degrees and my hotend reports 16 degrees. When operating at 230 degrees however, the hotend temperature is pretty accurate.

Dave

Quote
droftarts

Another test you can do is to try a number of different value axial resistors; replace the thermistor in the wiring loom. Resistors of the following values should equate to the following temperatures:

100k ohm = 25C
47k ohm = 42C
10k ohm = 84C
1k ohm = 173C
470 ohm = 212C
220 ohm = 261C
100 ohm = 321C

Remember to reset the board, or send the command to reset the temperature fault, if the hot end reports with a fault.

Test performed and the values obtained are the same until the resistor 47k


100k --> -2.5° C
47k --> 31° C
10k --> 84° C
1k --> 173° C
470 --> 212° C
220 --> 260° C
100 --> 320° C

Now i try to proceed with next istruction.

"Change the last line in config.g from 'G10 P1 S-273 R-273' to 'G10 P1 S25 R25'."

Quote
droftarts
If you are using the latest firmware, you can set the temperature to come on at startup. Change the last line in config.g from 'G10 P1 S-273 R-273' to 'G10 P1 S25 R25'.

I have sent you an email regarding replacing the board under warranty.

Ian
RepRapPro tech support

With this change in config.g the temp of Hot end is -28° end don't start the heater.
I prefer wait the new board.

Those readings suggest strongly that the ADC on your board is not within the tolerance allowed by the design. The change to config.g will probably get you printing. For some more permanent solutions, ask RRP for a replacement Duet or see my reponse 6 posts ago in this thread, which you may have missed because it crossed with your own post.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2014 04:22PM by dc42.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Hi Mak64

Thanks for doing the extra testing. Yes, it's clearly the ADC problem. I've sent you an email about replacing the board, and the missing Bowden brass end. I'm not sure why the change to G10 did not work for you, but perhaps the ADC is too far out for it to work.

Ian
RepRapPro tech support

Dear DC42,how to use M105 P1 Hxx to solve this ADC problem.PLEASE show me the details

To use this feature, you need to use my firmware fork or zpl's. To correct for the ADC offsets affecting the hot end temperature reading:

(a) Simple method: with the hot end at room temperature and a thermometer to tell you the temperature, send command M305 P1 Hnn for various values of nn until you discover the value of nn that gives the correct temperature readout. Do not set the L parameter. I suggest you start by trying H=30. The higher the H factor, the higher the reading will be. After sending M305, if the hot end temperature is in a fault state because the reading was out of range, you will need to send M562 P1 to reset the fault before you can see the new reading.

(b) More accurate method: replace the hot end thermistor by a 100K 1% resistor and adjust the H parameter to get a reading as close to 25C as possible (you probably won't manage exactly 25.0C because the DAC quantum is about 0.6C at this temperature). Then substitute a 220 ohm 1% resistor and adjust the L parameter to get a reading of 260.1C. Then change the resistor back to 100K, check you are still getting a reading close to 25C, and fine-tune the H parameter if necessary.

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

is incredible .... was arrived the new board.
Now it does not work the temperatra bed. (With the old board card was OK.)



Unplugging the connector marks -273


this and 'my config.g

"; Configuration file for RepRap Ormerod 2
; RepRapPro Ltd
;
; Copy this file to config.g if you have an Ormerod 2
; If you are updating a config.g that you already have you
; may wish to go through it and this file checking what you
; want to keep from your old file.
;
M111 S0 ; Debug off
M550 PMy RepRapPro Ormerod 2 ; Machine name (can be anything you like)
M551 Preprap ; Machine password (currently not used)
M540 P0xBE:0xEF:0xDE:0xAD:0xFE:0xED ; MAC Address
M552 P192.168.1.134 ; IP address
M553 P255.255.255.0 ; Netmask
M554 P192.168.1.1 ; Gateway
M555 P2 ; Set output to look like Marlin
G21 ; Work in millimetres
G90 ; Send absolute corrdinates...
M83 ; ...but relative extruder moves
M906 X800 Y1000 Z800 E800 ; Set motor currents (mA)
M305 P0 R4700 ; Set the heated bed thermistor series resistor to 4K7
M305 P1 R4700 ; Set the hot end thermistor series resistor to 4K7
M569 P0 S0 ; Reverse the X motor
M92 E452 ; Set extruder steps per mm
M558 P2 ; Use a modulated Z probe
G31 Z1.3 P607 ; Set the probe height and threshold (deliberately too high to avoid bed crashes on initial setup)
M557 P0 X50 Y0 ; Four...
M557 P1 X50 Y180 ; ...probe points...
M557 P2 X213 Y180 ; ...for bed...
M557 P3 X213 Y0 ; ...levelling
M556 S74 X-0.4 Y0.35 Z0.2 ; Put your axis compensation here
M201 X500 Y500 Z15 E500 ; Accelerations (mm/s^2)
M203 X15000 Y15000 Z100 E3600 ; Maximum speeds (mm/min)
M566 X1200 Y1200 Z30 E1200 ; Minimum speeds mm/minute
M563 P1 D0 H1 ; Define tool 1
G10 P1 S-273 R-273 ; Set tool 1 operating and standby temperatures"

what do I do?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2014 08:47AM by Mak64.

It sounds like a loose connection, shorting out or disconnection on the heated bed thermistor wiring. For testing the hardware, see: [reprappro.com]

Ian
RepRapPro tech support

Quote
droftarts
It sounds like a loose connection, shorting out or disconnection on the heated bed thermistor wiring. For testing the hardware, see: [reprappro.com]

Ian
RepRapPro tech support

With the temperature shown, I think the bed thermistor is shorted.

Dave

I think I have solved the problem of bed temperature. It was the crimp connector incorrectly. Inserting pin to test the thermistor pins were going to make contact with the wire, but the insulation of the wire did not make contact with the spring. I found this because with the individual resistances results were ok.

Quote
Mak64
I think I have solved the problem of bed temperature. It was the crimp connector incorrectly. Inserting pin to test the thermistor pins were going to make contact with the wire, but the insulation of the wire did not make contact with the spring. I found this because with the individual resistances results were ok.

Glad you fixed it! Out of interest, was it a pre-crimped connection, or one that you crimped yourself?

---

Large delta printer [miscsolutions.wordpress.com], E3D tool changer, Robotdigg SCARA printer, Crane Quad and Ormerod

Disclosure: I design Duet electronics and work on RepRapFirmware, [duet3d.com].

Quote
dc42
Out of interest, was it a pre-crimped connection, or one that you crimped yourself?

Was a pre-crimped connection. Probably with old board is ok because the pin connector is more long (strip connectors). In the new board the strip are replaced with molex connectors. Also a cable motor had the same problem (two weeks ago), but is more easy to find for the classic noise motor.

Now is my time for a questions:
if is possible i would like two image of object printing with a nozzle 0.5 and the same object with 0.3.

Thanks.

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2014 01:10AM by Mak64.

Quote
dc42
To use this feature, you need to use my firmware fork or zpl's. To correct for the ADC offsets affecting the hot end temperature reading:

(a) Simple method: with the hot end at room temperature and a thermometer to tell you the temperature, send command M305 P1 Hnn for various values of nn until you discover the value of nn that gives the correct temperature readout. Do not set the L parameter. I suggest you start by trying H=30. The higher the H factor, the higher the reading will be. After sending M305, if the hot end temperature is in a fault state because the reading was out of range, you will need to send M562 P1 to reset the fault before you can see the new reading.

(b) More accurate method: replace the hot end thermistor by a 100K 1% resistor and adjust the H parameter to get a reading as close to 25C as possible (you probably won't manage exactly 25.0C because the DAC quantum is about 0.6C at this temperature). Then substitute a 220 ohm 1% resistor and adjust the L parameter to get a reading of 260.1C. Then change the resistor back to 100K, check you are still getting a reading close to 25C, and fine-tune the H parameter if necessary.

Thank you so much！！！