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Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C

Posted by derletztename 
Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
May 10, 2017 06:24AM
Hey Guys
I am developing a low-cost printer that prints with metals, f.ex. steel and I am having issues to get marlin to work with my thermocouple properly together. I only can melt steel but not print it.
Could someone please help me with the coding? I am really bad with software sad smiley

I already issued this via Marlin on github:
https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/issues/4938
https://github.com/MarlinFirmware/Marlin/issues/5046

So this could be a starting point.
I can measure temperatures up to 1000°C right now before running into Marlin Software issues.
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
May 10, 2017 07:04AM
Why not use an external controller that is better suited to that temperature range and the probably enormous heater power required to produce it?

Are you planning to melt steel wire and extrude it like plastic?


Son of MegaMax 3D printer: [www.instructables.com]
Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
May 10, 2017 10:47AM
I'm surprised to see you using such low-end electronics for what will obviously be an expensive printer. Had you chosen to use a Duet WiFi or Duet Ethernet then you would have been able to buy a thermocouple daughter board that is purpose-designed for the electronics, supported in firmware as standard without reliance on third-party libraries, and without the need to recompile the firmware to change temperature limits, or select thermocouple sensor instead of thermistor, etc.

Having said that, from the links you posted it does appear that the Marlin devs have been trying to help you.


Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
May 10, 2017 11:55AM
Hey Guys
Thanks for the answer.

Actually I am trying to build it low-cost, but if it does work it doesn't really matter which electronics I use right now. I already have some experiences with Marlin and for implementing a thermocouple you need to add such a little breakout board. Therefore this was a viable way and the one I chose.
If there is another one which is even more simple to implement even better. It just would be good if the printing software e.g. pronterface can handle it completely, moving the printer, measuring the temperature and controlling the power of the heater. Regulating the heater up to 1600°C.

So if you pack me a viable package that's kind of plug and play, I'll buy it.
In the final product there will be some customized electronics I guess, but for the prototype I just need a working base to start with. Finding the right parameters will be the harder part.
And yes the Marlin devs tried to help me, the esenapaj guy was really nice and a got help, but we did not finish (I had not enough time at that point) and now he is gone sad smiley

So if you can pack me a package that let's me use my thermocouple type S and the mosfet for controlling the power up to 15-20 Amps, and maybe even help me getting it to work, I am happy to buy it smiling smiley
Maybe PM me about this?

Ah, and yes, I am planning to print metal as we print plasic. As wire that is "extruded" layer onto layer. We'll see how good this work out in the end winking smiley
Opinions welcome
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
May 10, 2017 01:38PM
Well the Duet WiFi and Duet Ethernet can be controlled with Pronterface, but the web interface is much more comprehensive than Pronterface and can be used on any PC, tablet or smartphone running Chrome or Firefox. The bed heater output is rated to 18A @ up to 25V, so if you don't need it to control a bed heater then you can configure that output to control your hot end heater instead. Or use a SSR for higher voltage and/or current, see [duet3d.com] for recommendations.

The thermocouple daughter board we manufacture as standard supports two K-type thermocouples, so we would have to do a special one for you with MAX31855S chips instead of MAX31855K. That's not a problem, because I have some spare blank PCBs, and the chips are readily available.

You can find out more about the Duets at [www.duet3d.com]. PM me if you decide to go this route and need the S-type thermocouple board.

It would be really great to see low cost 3D metal printing. I guess you are going to need a heated chamber too (the Duet supports that). What nozzle material are you planning to use? Tungsten perhaps, or maybe a ceramic?


Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
May 11, 2017 01:05PM
Hey dc42,

I did PM you about the Duet route, but you did not answer sad smiley
I need a running system...
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
May 11, 2017 03:17PM
I've just replied to your PM by email.


Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
July 02, 2017 05:06PM
Just as a note, FDM with metals won't work as it does with plastics. I recall someone trying something similar with solder, but the solder turned into a blobby line rather than the line you'd get from plastics. Metals don't have the same plastic state thermoplastics have in between molten liquid and solid, so they don't leave an extruded line behind so much as a puddle/droplets. That being said if you can make it work with a proof of concept I'll be quick to change sides and start helping developement winking smiley
VDX
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
July 03, 2017 08:16AM
... yes, FDM printing is not suited for metal or high thermal conducting materials - it needs a pretty big "viscosity-gap" between fluid and solid, what's too narrow with metal.

I'm testing and developing metal printing methodes for R&D-projects with NDA's, so can't say much about it - but your best way should be filaments with high loads of metal dust (found some with 80% of steel) -- print with a common FDM-printer -- then sinter the part to get it "solid" ... it will shrink drastically (up to 18% with the 80% metal load), but then it will represent a nearly pure metal object ...


Viktor
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
July 03, 2017 12:10PM
Hey Viktor, nice to hear from you again smiling smiley
Yeah these NDAs... thats why we can't have that argument written in here sad smiley
OpenSource really is a gift the big companies need to understand...

Nevertheless for the process with powder in the filament you mentioned, thats the approach Desktop Metal and Markforged and all the others take.
It is not a bad way to got, you only need experience on the sintering process or lots of time to get these experience. And also an expensive kiln/ furnace for the sintering.
Just today I visited a sintering plant and was allowed to break these pre-sintered parts (which actually already looked like steel) with my bare hands. The whole process needs experience to be handled.
The same is true for FDM metal printing. If we assume some metals have this
Quote
big "viscosity-gap" between fluid and solid"
the next thing to control is the adhesion of the layers and the adhesion to the print bed. Both not that easy, but there are solutions for that...
Right now I am working mostly on the business behind that, as soon as this is sorted out, we might should have an phone call and talk about opportunities again... maybe new possibilities have opened up smiling smiley
VDX
Re: Need help to Get Marlin to Print at 1600°C
July 03, 2017 02:54PM
... there are several pretty interesting (or intriguing) methodes for "Additive Fabrication" with pure metal materials and others with some "tweaking", to get the target parts with several steps, like infusion of molten metal or galvanic "growing" - did some of this on my own and was involved into others -- so I'm sure, there will be more possibilities in some years (when the results are out or the NDA's or IP-covers will end).

Actually I'm busy with a methode based on "direct wire-fusion", what will give pretty small heads and more options than possible with the common types.

But have some other methodes "in reserve" too, if there will be some more time winking smiley


Viktor
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