1mx1m hot plate?

Im worried about moving the z axis as there wont be any space. But as the looks of it there is no wobble, and with a slight decrease in acceleration in the firmware I could have 0 shakiness.
Now the printer will be dramatically slower but this is for testing only. So I know I might have some issues but I want to try it out. Especially with this new v slot linear system which is VERY sturdy and strong.

Ìf you go gantry design, do not expect to exceed much beyond 30mm/s and prep for ultra long prints.

It's inherent characteristic of the design, you need to use gigantic parts (which yours are not) to make it sturdy, and then you'd have extremely low accelerations due to the weight.

Basicly the gantry is a huge lever, at the end of which you most of your weight.

Even the i3 design is sturdier than that, despite close to gantry. In i3 you can gently push the Z rod and bend your whole build plate (!!). It's that level of wobblyness gantry is going to have, except now all the movement happens in your hotend.

Let's say there is 0,01mm flex with 1kg @ 10cm on the joints of gantry, and you have 120cm long arm, with 1kg at the end of 120cm is already 0,12mm.
Then you have your Z in middle of that at most bottom position and it hits plastic at force of 1kg, because this is single jointed you are going to experience double the flex, and hence a total of 0,24mm.

Don't know how much it is, but small amounts like these are hard to measure, take a straight edge, line it up, then apply force.

Aluminium is not the most sturdy material to begin with, it has good strength vs. weight tradeoff, but it's not popular because it's the strongest, it's popular because of it's malleability and lightweight.

You can pretty much use the same parts you use for gantry to make a CoreXY and bed moving in Z.

The base you got there is already the base frame suitable for CoreXY. Order 2 more of those going upwards and you have your corner pieces, which you could mount to say 2/4" to save on costs.
The one you planned for Z currently need to be doubled so you have one on each end of the bed. I would use total of 4.

So it's more materials def, but also a lot better design - and to make large volume work @ low cost, instead of extraordinary high cost, you need to focus on design.

Cannot have weak design & low cost on the same machine and expect to achieve good speeds.

Gantry does work and is being used, especially on CNC routers where speed is not an issue. Just do not expect to drive any high speeds with this machine, and you'll be good to go - that's the only means to minimize the wobblyness.
Expect a print to take 3 to 5 times longer than with CoreXY design.

I understand. and I kinda forgot that I cant "overclock" the speed as much as a coreXY can. This is really a bummer, but I have no other choice as I have no space in my room.
Another reason why I want to move... Really sad though, I have so many projects that are limited to space.

CoreXY takes barely anymore space than gantry would, it's a cube sized 10-25cm larger than print volume

Oh right... I was thinking about an prusa i3 for some reason.
But that quite a bit more parts... I just calculated and $181
With 100$ being just for the damn plates and wheels, damn those things are expensive, otherwise open builds sells pretty cheap.
Ill look for cheaper wheels, but otherwise im ok with it being slow until I move. Plus it would be a peaceful tone when I sleep I hope ...

Yay! I can finally say openbuild is the best. But thats the issue, everyone else sells it for a much more higher cost.
I found these wheels, which are 1$ cheaper, and if I go piece by piece rather then a discount kit that openbuild sells, then I will have to pay 30$ more... not worth saving $4
[www.vxb.com]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2015 07:46PM by rowow.

Someone else just built a corexy printer and was not happy with metal wheels because it wears out the aluminium, and your tolerances get whacked, basicly the material becomes thinner on the most used section.

But that's just what i read.

Cheapest wheels would be getting cheap ABEC 9 608zz, and printing the V-groove section

*facepalm* why didnt I think of that :/
Ill draw up a sketchup in the next few days and have it printed next weekend. But I hope the tolerances will be ok, because if so I can save hundredths of dollars.
But man I wish I had a lathe, it would make things much more precise and accurate for even cheaper!
[www.eplastics.com]
But again, because of the lack of space I cant fit a lathe anywhere...

Quote
rowow

Quote
val c.

Quote
dc42
IMO you cannot build a large 3D printer on a budget. The only way I know of getting a sufficiently flat bed of that size is to use an aluminium tool plate. To heat it, I would ask these people [www.aliexpress.com] to quote for a silicone heater slightly less than 1m square. They did a custom heater for my delta printer at a very good price, so I would expect it to cost a lot less than the $450 that has been mentioned.

you're right about the budget.
I think I passed 11.000 on mine.
regarding the 450 usd, that was for a 1275 x 1110 mm etched foil silicone pad (there is a picture of it in one of my previous posts on this thread). I don't know the size of your heater, but as you say, Aliexpress can have some darn good deals sometimes. Considering I got a quote from durex of about 2000 doillars for the same thing, I believe I still came out ok with only 450 usd from china.

$11,000 for a 3d printer? It must be either REALLY huge or really complex with gadgets and gizmos that I cant even imagine, or you got ripped off badly...

BTW I have already finished building the 3d printer frame, all I need to do is wait for 20 more screws that I lost somewhere and it will be assembled. Literally everything is finished except for hooking up the Z to the Y and those two to the X. And after that I got the basics of hooking up the stepper motors, and hooking up those to the controller, but as I have already said, I managed to do this whole project for way under 400$ (excluding the heat bed), so if you spent $11,000 then I must be missing something

I designed and built it myself. The printing size, for the money, is around 50x43x45 inches. Such a printer costs from 40 to 70 thousand, and above, if I were to buy it. I think that, under the circumstances, 11 thousand is not that much.

3d printed wheels: File & sand them by hand if you need to, lower wheels spring tensioned.
But you are correct, won't be the most precise around, but hey, you never know before you try, right?

For lathe: [www.thingiverse.com]


As it's just a v-groove, you could take a power drill, and make a custom cutting bit to make the groove. I think it does not matter if each wheel is exactly the same, as long as it doesn't have bumps etc. and they are relatively close to each other.
Reasoning is that these are not driving etc. they are just idling, and hence the precise circumference is not so exact, and doing a normal drill used as lathe, you can get a very smooth v-groove in there. First print with v-groove and use your custom bit just to smooth it out
Plastic being rather soft, you can probably just take a piece of 3mm think sheet metal, cut & file it into shape and use that to shave off any excess material.

11k $ for a 3d printer is quite a lot, much beyond most hobbyists. I spent on my first 3d printer probably 3k These days you can buy almost as good printers for 300$ ... Well not really! The extra expenses really show, the high quality bearings, stronger motors etc. But you could take a 300-400$ kit, purchase stronger steppers, higher quality rods & bearings and come close to the print quality & speed my first one had.

Quote
val c.

Quote
rowow

Quote
val c.

Quote
dc42
IMO you cannot build a large 3D printer on a budget. The only way I know of getting a sufficiently flat bed of that size is to use an aluminium tool plate. To heat it, I would ask these people [www.aliexpress.com] to quote for a silicone heater slightly less than 1m square. They did a custom heater for my delta printer at a very good price, so I would expect it to cost a lot less than the $450 that has been mentioned.

you're right about the budget.
I think I passed 11.000 on mine.
regarding the 450 usd, that was for a 1275 x 1110 mm etched foil silicone pad (there is a picture of it in one of my previous posts on this thread). I don't know the size of your heater, but as you say, Aliexpress can have some darn good deals sometimes. Considering I got a quote from durex of about 2000 doillars for the same thing, I believe I still came out ok with only 450 usd from china.

$11,000 for a 3d printer? It must be either REALLY huge or really complex with gadgets and gizmos that I cant even imagine, or you got ripped off badly...

BTW I have already finished building the 3d printer frame, all I need to do is wait for 20 more screws that I lost somewhere and it will be assembled. Literally everything is finished except for hooking up the Z to the Y and those two to the X. And after that I got the basics of hooking up the stepper motors, and hooking up those to the controller, but as I have already said, I managed to do this whole project for way under 400$ (excluding the heat bed), so if you spent $11,000 then I must be missing something

I designed and built it myself. The printing size, for the money, is around 50x43x45 inches. Such a printer costs from 40 to 70 thousand, and above, if I were to buy it. I think that, under the circumstances, 11 thousand is not that much.

If you read the rest of the post you would realize people (including I) are building 3D printers larger then yours for under 400$
So yes, its alot.

Ah right, the good ol drill lathe Ill have to see if I have any drills with a 1" chuck, otherwise ill have to go with smaller wheels, which aren't an issue, but means ill have to go with a slight different path. But before I even do that ill do the 3d printing and sanding, and hopefully that works.
Maybe instead of ordering plastic rod, I could just make it from recycled HDPE. Ive never worked with HDPE, but it should be good as wheels.

Drill a 1/4" hole in the center of your stock and put in a 1/4 - 20 bolt and nut and mount that in a drill.

Get a lathe
-- 6 years, a ton of stock
--- 50 different cutters, 8 different measuring devices
--- 56000 questions on how to turn materials

--- to learn techniques and how to be accurate
-- then you can "Machine" your accurate parts.

Then you will need a mill

Then a new six car garage on house 1 bay for car 5 bays for projects

or just purchase parts made by a good machinist or CNC machine.


Wha Wha Wha --- my part is off by 12 nanometers Whaaaaaaaaa1

Quote
rowow

But man I wish I had a lathe, it would make things much more precise and accurate for even cheaper!

Ah right, the good ol drill lathe Ill have to see if I have any drills with a 1" chuck, otherwise ill have to go with smaller wheels, which aren't an issue, but means ill have to go with a slight different path. But before I even do that ill do the 3d printing and sanding, and hopefully that works.
Maybe instead of ordering plastic rod, I could just make it from recycled HDPE. Ive never worked with HDPE, but it should be good as wheels.

Yes that sounds very nice, but make that 6 garage bays rather then 5. 5 would be too small,
1 for storage, 1 for 3d printing, 1 for wood milling, 1 for metal milling, 1 for homemade plastic extrusion.
And im dead serious. Like I said, I am going to move. I am currently getting all the financing ready and im looking for 2 acre property for a low price.
But im sorry if you live your life by purchasing everything online because you cant do anything yourself but thats not how I live.
Also a lathe is used MUCH more then a few wheels and takes the space of a table...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2015 07:03PM by rowow.

Quote
rowow
Ah right, the good ol drill lathe Ill have to see if I have any drills with a 1" chuck, otherwise ill have to go with smaller wheels, which aren't an issue, but means ill have to go with a slight different path. But before I even do that ill do the 3d printing and sanding, and hopefully that works.
Maybe instead of ordering plastic rod, I could just make it from recycled HDPE. Ive never worked with HDPE, but it should be good as wheels.

You don't need 1" chuck to mount a 8mm rod
you can use 2 washers & nuts to secure the wheel to a M8 bolt or rod.

Quote
cozmicray
Drill a 1/4" hole in the center of your stock and put in a 1/4 - 20 bolt and nut and mount that in a drill.

Get a lathe
-- 6 years, a ton of stock
--- 50 different cutters, 8 different measuring devices
--- 56000 questions on how to turn materials

--- to learn techniques and how to be accurate
-- then you can "Machine" your accurate parts.

Then you will need a mill

Then a new six car garage on house 1 bay for car 5 bays for projects

or just purchase parts made by a good machinist or CNC machine.


Wha Wha Wha --- my part is off by 12 nanometers Whaaaaaaaaa1

Lol, sounds kinda like me!
Got 150m2 garage and ~315m2 warehouse and like 7 project cars, couple useless dailies, race car and work car
Because of the race car i'm building this big 3d printer to begin with

I have a lathe, I turn all kinds of parts I can't buy
I have a mill, that use more than lathe
I have a CNC router with a spindle and solid state laser, I swap out

I am building a SCARA robot arm to do what ever I program it to do.

I rip logs into planks with chainsaw mill.

Don't be sorry for me -- if I use my time to make things I want to make --- NOT things that are better or cheaper purchased on-line

Quote
rowow

But im sorry if you live your life by purchasing everything online because you cant do anything yourself but thats not how I live.
Also a lathe is used MUCH more then a few wheels and takes the space of a table...

Quote
cozmicray
I have a lathe, I turn all kinds of parts I can't buy
I have a mill, that use more than lathe
I have a CNC router with a spindle and solid state laser, I swap out

I am building a SCARA robot arm to do what ever I program it to do.

I rip logs into planks with chainsaw mill.

Don't be sorry for me -- if I use my time to make things I want to make --- NOT things that are better or cheaper purchased on-line

Quote
rowow

But im sorry if you live your life by purchasing everything online because you cant do anything yourself but thats not how I live.
Also a lathe is used MUCH more then a few wheels and takes the space of a table...

Each wheel kit costs over 25$, If I can make my own wheels, and mill my own plates, I can save over $24 as the 1x5mm 25mm bolt, 1x5mm nut, 2xwashers, and 2xbearings are dirt cheap.
So as I said, these things are expensive, and well worth the time and effort to make your own.

Also an update to the gantry system. Ive installed the v groove wheels the wrong way. Because of this I had to sacrifice between sturdiness, and smoothness of the linear system. Due to this I had a little bit of wobble on the z axis.
After reinstalling all of the wheels the proper way there is NO wobbliness on the z axis, and its buttery smooth.
Ill install the motors today (im currently 3d printing the parts) and see how it goes.
But as I have tested with my hand which provides much more strength then a stepper motor, there was NO wobbliness.

I also 3d modeled the wheels and motor mounts, ill see how they perform and upload them onto thingiverse later today.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2015 08:46AM by rowow.

Reality Check!!!!

608zz bearing $1.00
M3 Stainless Black Hex Head Socket Cap Bolt $1.00
M3 SS Hex Locking Lock Nuts $0.50
M3 SSBolt Flat Washer $0.10
Black Acetal / Delrin rod 0.98" (25mm) dia - 4.25" $5.00 $1.25 per wheel

Per wheel $4.95 without your time to turn wheels

to get under kit price -- your machining price
$1.30 per hour --- if your real good at turning delrin and don't screw up
I think the kids in Shirlanka get a better hourly rate
and while your turning wheels -- you are NOT putting a printer together?

40 lb potting soil (dirt) $2.50

Unless you are going to buy 100 piece lots

Not as cheap as dirt

Quote
rowow


Each wheel kit costs over 25$, If I can make my own wheels, and mill my own plates, I can save over $24 as the 1x5mm 25mm bolt, 1x5mm nut, 2xwashers, and 2xbearings are dirt cheap.
So as I said, these things are expensive, and well worth the time and effort to make your own.

Quote
cozmicray
Reality Check!!!!

608zz bearing $1.00
M3 Stainless Black Hex Head Socket Cap Bolt $1.00
M3 SS Hex Locking Lock Nuts $0.50
M3 SSBolt Flat Washer $0.10
Black Acetal / Delrin rod 0.98" (25mm) dia - 4.25" $5.00 $1.25 per wheel

Per wheel $4.95 without your time to turn wheels

to get under kit price -- your machining price
$1.30 per hour --- if your real good at turning delrin and don't screw up
I think the kids in Shirlanka get a better hourly rate
and while your turning wheels -- you are NOT putting a printer together?

40 lb potting soil (dirt) $2.50

Unless you are going to buy 100 piece lots

Not as cheap as dirt

Quote
rowow


Each wheel kit costs over 25$, If I can make my own wheels, and mill my own plates, I can save over $24 as the 1x5mm 25mm bolt, 1x5mm nut, 2xwashers, and 2xbearings are dirt cheap.
So as I said, these things are expensive, and well worth the time and effort to make your own.

Who doesn't buy their nuts and bolts in 100 pcs??? Im sorry but im not going to only use 4 bolts and throw the rest away. Lets make it simpler and go with 1 wheel
[openbuildspartstore.com]
$4.85

Delrin rod:
[www.eplastics.com]
$3 per foot
1 wheel is 0.4 inch long, lets say half an inch for when we make the final cut between wheels
1 foot = 12 inches
12 inches/0.5 = 24
$3/24 = $0.125
13 cents

Bearings:
[www.ebay.com]
10pcs = $2.44
2.44/10 = .24
.24 x 2 (2 pcs per wheel) = .48
48 cents

Washer:
[www.zoro.com]
100pcs = $0.33
0.33/100 = .003
.003 x 2 (2 pcs per wheel) = .006
less then 1 cent

Nut:
[www.zoro.com]
100pcs = $1.61
1.61/100 = .0161
2 cent

Total cost: $0.64 vs $4.85 vs your bullshit number of $4.95
Reality check!!! You dont know at all what your talking about. At least so SOME research and you would have realized these are 5mm wheels, NOT 3mm.
So thanks for wasting my f*cking time! makes me wonder if you even know how to use "your lathe" or if you even own one.
BTW I know a better forum for you, its by cubify 3d printer owners. I bet you and your "research" and logic will fit right in with the cubify 3d printer owners
Now that I think of it I bet you own one... do you? please tell me you do ;D

Guys Guys! Stop the hate, be positive!


I find it kinda ironic that on reprap M3s are so popular but they cost more than M4s

M4s you get by the kilo, here it is usually about 6€ per kilo, but M3s by the piece 0.10-0.5€ a piece
And since no one stocks them had to online order, so 100x short M3s + nuts cost me more than couple kilos of M4s -.-

If the driving force was to get price down, why use more expensive hardware when cheaper is available

I received the motors for my printer yesterday. Damn they are big compared to the average Nema 17s!

rowow,
you mentioned you want to build a printer kit for everyone to be cheap.
But when you put so much of your own time ( making the rollers ) into each kit, you'll have to raise the bill.

Or do you only want to proof, that someone with a complete metal and wood workshop can build things cheaper than buying stuff?
If so, I believe you are right. If not, be realistic about what others would have to pay for a kit, you've put together.
-Olaf

If putting together a kit for sale it comes down to volume.

Get 1 wheel it's 4.95$
Get 10 wheels it's 4.50$ a piece
Get 1000 wheels and it's 2$ a piece

Quote
o_lampe
rowow,
you mentioned you want to build a printer kit for everyone to be cheap.
But when you put so much of your own time ( making the rollers ) into each kit, you'll have to raise the bill.

Or do you only want to proof, that someone with a complete metal and wood workshop can build things cheaper than buying stuff?
If so, I believe you are right. If not, be realistic about what others would have to pay for a kit, you've put together.
-Olaf

Of course, I dont expect everyone to lathe their own wheels... But some people will want to. Just like the plates which cost $12. Some people may want to make their own if they are precise enough. Others may just want to buy it to not risk anything in case they are not able to do it and they would have to pay extra shipping costs later.
But in the end I can sell these wheels or use them for myself at a much cheaper price then other people

Quote
PulsedMedia
Guys Guys! Stop the hate, be positive!


I find it kinda ironic that on reprap M3s are so popular but they cost more than M4s

M4s you get by the kilo, here it is usually about 6€ per kilo, but M3s by the piece 0.10-0.5€ a piece
And since no one stocks them had to online order, so 100x short M3s + nuts cost me more than couple kilos of M4s -.-

If the driving force was to get price down, why use more expensive hardware when cheaper is available

I received the motors for my printer yesterday. Damn they are big compared to the average Nema 17s!

Im not going to be positive when someone claimed im wrong and the ways I do things are completly stupid when he didnt even do the smallest amount of research,
And I purchase my hardware from ZORO, which provides free shipping and all their parts are by the pcs, and much cheaper then anything locally or online. And because of that its cheaper to purchase the m3 rather then the m4.
But I understand what you mean, at my local hardware store its the same thing.

And with the kit thing ive looked into aliababa and they sell the wheels pretty cheap at half a dollar or less. Ill further look into it and if they really do sell it at that price (many times they lower the actual price on the listing to get more people to contact them) then ill purchase them and resell the rest that I dont use.

Sorry my Bad

I did a ebay "price plus shipping lowest first" for may estimate
I didn't realize you wanted to use 1 bolt and have 1000 in surplus

You are right 5mm shaft diameter is M5 my bad I know M3 is a tiny bolt

Please post a video of you machining your wheels (with a time reference in view).
Plastics (Delrin) tough to turn -- soft, turning makes it hot -- softer and holding dimension tricky.
but as a expert machinist you know this?

If you want to send me a cubify printer I'll try it out!

I built and use an Ordbot Hadron kit
I have a DaVinci 1.0 --got for $150 and rebuilt it
I built a WALLY polar printer --- never worked well

Built and use Shapeoko 2 CNC router

Building Core XY printer engraver system next

Thank you for your kind words.

Quote
rowow


Each wheel kit costs over 25$, If I can make my own wheels, and mill my own plates, I can save over $24 as the 1x5mm 25mm bolt, 1x5mm nut, 2xwashers, and 2xbearings are dirt cheap.
So as I said, these things are expensive, and well worth the time and effort to make your own.
Who doesn't buy their nuts and bolts in 100 pcs??? Im sorry but im not going to only use 4 bolts and throw the rest away. Lets make it simpler and go with 1 wheel
[openbuildspartstore.com]
$4.85

Delrin rod:
[www.eplastics.com]
$3 per foot
1 wheel is 0.4 inch long, lets say half an inch for when we make the final cut between wheels
1 foot = 12 inches
12 inches/0.5 = 24
$3/24 = $0.125
13 cents

Bearings:
[www.ebay.com]
10pcs = $2.44
2.44/10 = .24
.24 x 2 (2 pcs per wheel) = .48
48 cents

Washer:
[www.zoro.com]
100pcs = $0.33
0.33/100 = .003
.003 x 2 (2 pcs per wheel) = .006
less then 1 cent

Nut:
[www.zoro.com]
100pcs = $1.61
1.61/100 = .0161
2 cent

Total cost: $0.64 vs $4.85 vs your bullshit number of $4.95
Reality check!!! You dont know at all what your talking about. At least so SOME research and you would have realized these are 5mm wheels, NOT 3mm.
So thanks for wasting my f*cking time! makes me wonder if you even know how to use "your lathe" or if you even own one.
BTW I know a better forum for you, its by cubify 3d printer owners. I bet you and your "research" and logic will fit right in with the cubify 3d printer owners
Now that I think of it I bet you own one... do you? please tell me you do ;D

Of course, I try to upload everything I do. And about delrian I dont have any, and so ill attempt to experiment with HDPE. And I have, with little success.
I attempted to make the ghetto lathe pulsed media was talking about before with a press drill but its just too slow. So this weekend ill try with my cord drill which is a much higher rpm.
And I will only use this method if my 3d printing of the wheels doesn't work, which I dont see why it wont. But to be honest I am doing this ghetto lathe method to experiment a temporary way of having a lathe untill I move.

Also I have no clue why you are listing your 3d printers, but it seems fun so ill tag along!

My first printer was a prebuild reprap i2 from ebay for $375
After learning how it works I made a reprap i3 with a bed of 300x300x400 if im correct, was a while ago
I decided to make it bigger, so I scraped the parts and made one of 600x500x400 but reached a issue of the rods bending
So I scrapped that one and reused it to make a 300x300x200 but at that time I didnt have a job so I didnt have much funding into the project, and I kinda forgot about it with school and all. All I needed was the extruder.
Finally I got into 3d hubs and met a guy who runs a robotic club who won many world championships. He choose me even though he has his own cubify 3d printer because that I was much cheaper. So after printing alot of things he and other people started getting into complicating parts which can only be done with a second extruder running pva filament for the support. (one person requested I print a 3d model of their hip scanned by their doctor) Also he and other people started requesting parts much larger then 200mm
So I decided to do this project. I researched many linear rail systems and all where WAY to expensive, but with a job I was willing to spend $150 for a single 1m rail.
But I found open builds and started this project, and after realizing how cheap this all can be build for I decided to start a youtube series.
BUT one issue... and as many of you know from the beginning of this forum I couldnt find a cheap solution to the heated bed. So I joined this forum to get some advice. Which I have, mostly from pulsed media, basically all of it.

Never mind this wasnt fun, reminded me of my fails and learning days

Any progress here?

---

Ultra MegaMax Dominator 3D printer: [drmrehorst.blogspot.com]

I had to scrap the gantry style system due to after a week the bolts would loosen up and that caused wobble. However I quit my job 2 weeks ago and I got a few contacts and they want me to 3d print alot of stuff for them. We are still working out the details but due to that I am trying to setup the printer as fast as possible. So I am going with the CoreXY system. After being half way finished with the frame it turns out I ran out of bolts, so I ordered more and just got them a few days ago.
Just came back from spearfishing here in tampa and ill be back in progress on the printer.

Also due to me really needing this to be done asap I remember that foam idea that you came up with digital dentist in which I didn't like and it seems I am going to do that. Sorry about disliking it at fist. The nichrome idea still requires alot of work and testing to be done and like I said, this needs to be done soon. And with the amount of profit I will gain from the project I will purchase a silicone heat pad if needed.

But I should have it finished with photos in a few days, or at most a week.

Quote
dc42
.....
However, I still think it is a bad idea to mess around with nichrome wire and mains voltage, when you can get silicone heating pads.

Please, don't interfere with Darwin !