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PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite

Posted by epicepee 
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 03, 2017 04:26AM
despite the other opinions i'm very convinced of buildtak - well i print only pla at this time, but i'm using this sheet for quite some weeks now, works really good. Heated bed off, that is.
It's just fast and easy, fire up the nozzle and let go, no need to wait forever for the bed or to spill some strange liquids on the bed, it just works.
just my 2 cents ;-)
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 03, 2017 01:03PM
I print PLA on plain float glass, PEI, and PrintBite.

- Plain glass works really with the PLA from rigidink that I use at present, and also worked well with the eSun filament I used previously. Some other PLA filaments won't stick to it. See my blog entry for how to clean the glass initially to get good adhesion.

- PEI works, but large prints stick to it too well and I often have to put the bed + print in the freezer to separate them.

- I've recently started using PrintBite on one of my printers, and after the bed cools down the print detaches more easily than with PEI.


Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 04, 2017 08:08AM
In DC42's blog [miscsolutions.wordpress.com] he says that plain heated glass works well. In the past I used to use only plain glass on ABS as well as PLA and it never gave any problem until it suddenly stopped working. Looking back I suspect that the end of wonderful glass adhesion coincided with my getting some high purity acetone: Although I did discover various things like not to wipe that acetone on with high strength kitchen towels (makes for poor adhesion) and that leaving the glass in bright sunlight for some weeks gets back some of its mojo, I don't think I ever tried going back to simple soapy water and the avoidance of alcohol, acetone, cellulose thinners and other organic solvents.
I will try getting some brand new plain 3mm float glass and vinegar and see if the early perfect adhesion returns

Mike
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 04, 2017 10:24AM
Quote
DjDemonD
Okay so no name black ABS from go-inks (the white one was printed about a year ago so no idea although I was using quite a bit of Excelvan which is not available anymore - which is a great shame).

Using Prusa slic3r for the black one probably 2 perimeters and no infill, to try to minimise the amount of material causing contraction as it cools.

Light wash of abs juice really quite dilute.

Here they are:
[attachment 99343 20171101_193252.jpg]

No infill. Clever. But I was about to declare foul, and ask for a ruling from the line judge for violating the spirit the test.thumbs downthumbs up But my results with 10% infill below didn't show an improvement. Go-inks availability is a prob in the US. Could that be the magic?

Left to right. Previous eSun print; -0- lift using glue stick slurry on glass w/brim removed. Next (red) MakerGeeks -you can see some pucker where the part pulled up some of the brim. Next two (purple) eSun 50% and 10% infill -both pulled away; about 0.2mm lift (I need to grab these parts in the Mill and measure the run out with a dial indicator.)

My goal is printing huge ABS parts. Any slight lifting is a failed print. Next printer, 50C max chamber temp won't be an issue. I can get close with the glue stick slurry on glass and water soak release. Downside it takes forever to release and tends to pull glass chips. My experience with PEI is that the ABS part pulled the 0.8mm thick PEI sheet off the glass (attached with 3M 468mp) and needing to put the bed in freezer to detach, which is about the same time as soaking to release gluestick.



A huge variable that is not controlled here is the type of ABS. I've run experiments where there is very large variation from eSun between different colors and batches. I'll try some Hatchbox next.

Quote
ECJ
Dilute 0.5 grams of "dental acrylic powder" into 15 grams of ABS juice and then tell us the result... Intructions:

Add the powder on the juice and stir / shake vigorously. Let stand for 2 hours and then stir / shake again. It will be ready to use.

It gives good results even on a glass table. But it should be spread on the heated desk at about 45 degrees to repel moisture that can spoil the effectiveness of the film.

I love this. First thing that came to mind was 007 "Shaken, not stirred". I am fresh out of dental acrylic. 2 hour prep is a PITA, but if the result is magical, it might be worth the wait. What is the theory behind this and what kind of results are you seeing? what brand of acrylic powder? Prime? release on cooling? pulls glass chips? what brand ABS?
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 04, 2017 12:40PM
ABS blends vary wildly. A lot of recycled plastic is often used in cheaper no names. Pigments make a big difference to (any) plastics aswell.

Check out ABS-X (from 3Dfilaprint.com) or Tritan-X from FormFutura - Low warp, pure ABS. Prints at 220c, excellent surface finish, sticks to PB easily at 80c with NO warp. Although I use 100c on bottom layer and then drop to 85 just to be sure.

I have another black ABS i used, works great at 110c, however the red of same brand requires 115, the orange needs closer to 120c. But they all self release for easy lift off during cooldown.

Clean level bed is essential cannot stress enough. Soaps can vary so I tend to avoid recommending, but dishwashing liquid solution (ie diluted with water) "should" breakdown any grease, and a wipe over with clean kitchen towel to remove and dry off.

Lab grade acetone on plain unfragranced kitchen towel will remove all contaminants, finger grease etc. Lab grade alcohol will not (otherwise I would advise as can be used) - does not remove everything - can leave "rainbow tinted" film behind (ie oily). I agree it shouldnt, but it can/does. Clean a kitchen window with alcohol and look at it in sunlight.

I only clean if I have touched the bed (or if a stray cat slept on it). I dont clean after every print as not required. Only if a print shows sign of lifting, then ill give a light wipe over acetone/kitchen towel, done.

For standard ABS it is important to have a high nozzle temp for that bottom layer to get a FULL melt of the material. For such material i generally use 245 all way through print, which provides for best interlayer adhesion aswell.

HTH


Flex3Drive.com
ECJ
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 04, 2017 03:59PM
Quote
to-the-nth

I love this. First thing that came to mind was 007 "Shaken, not stirred". I am fresh out of dental acrylic. 2 hour prep is a PITA, but if the result is magical, it might be worth the wait. What is the theory behind this and what kind of results are you seeing? what brand of acrylic powder? Prime? release on cooling? pulls glass chips? what brand ABS?

Acrylic promotes good adhesion to glass, but not so well to ABS. The ABS adheres well to the ABS itself, but not so well to the glass. Mix the two and voilà!

The acrylic I use is this: [smilequip.com]

ABS is scrap of failed prints eye rolling smiley Various brands spinning smiley sticking its tongue out

Obviously the glass needs to be clean. But I get this quite simply using "tape durex". Just apply and remove the tape on the glass a few times and it gets completely clean and degreased.

The parts alone release from the glass as it cools completely. But can also pull so the temperature is below 70 °C

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/04/2017 04:06PM by ECJ.
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 11, 2017 12:47PM
I've found that a very think application of glue stick to Printbite one time before use will last for hundreds of prints, and it makes everything stick better (but still release when cool). It does wonders on Polycarbonate, nylon, PLA, ABS, PETG, TECHG, Bluprint, you name it...
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 20, 2017 10:41PM
@ECJ - have you ever pulled a glass chip?

@Mutley3D - exactly. ABS blends vary wildly. With eSun and MakerGeeks, I just wasn't able to get good attachment on part edges. Core of part fused to bed, but edges still lifting.

I am getting very satisfactory (like awesome) results using Elmer's Xtreme Glue stick/water slurry. Just seems to hold the edges down better. Some parts don't need a brim. Running 120C first layer with glass bed, 95-105 other layers. 260/250 on extruder.

Will be ordering some new PrintBite sheets shortly. I am impressed so far with how durable PrintBite is. Most times parts just pop off, but if they don't, I have the option to soak them off since the gluestick will eventually dissolve with water. So far, I have not had to pry parts off the bed. This is a new experience being able to print anywhere on the bed, and not having to work around glass chips.

Yes it is possible to cut PrintBite with an Exacto knife. However, I don't recommend it. Cut mostly thru from the top and finish thru the bottom. I used a diamond hone to resharpen the knife every other cut. Took about 20 minutes. Used a clamped straight edge. Finished result was not too bad. What kind of adhesive does PrintBite use?

Those filament options look interesting, but do you have any recommendations that are readily available in the States? Shipping costs almost as much as the filament from 3Dfilaprint.com.

@DjDemonD - I stand in awe of you being able to print a Warpinator-5000 without a brim with -0- lifting. I got there, but had to use a brim. Interestingly, infill % didn't seem to make that much of a diff. The light wash of ABS juice was good, but baked gluestick slurry was better.

@dtwrv6 - What kind of glue stick are you using?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2017 10:42PM by to-the-nth.
ECJ
Re: PEI vs. BuildTak vs. PrintBite
November 21, 2017 06:45AM
Quote
to-the-nth
@ECJ - have you ever pulled a glass chip?

No. As I said before, the parts come loose on their own after they've cooled. And with a low of 50 degrees, you can pull them with some ease.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2017 06:45AM by ECJ.
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