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New print surface material?

Posted by Mutley3D 
Re: New print surface material?
January 31, 2017 07:05AM
Any tips for Ninjaflex on Printbite? I can print it, I can't get it off..... The print is often demolished trying to prize it off. I'm now resorting to blue tape after spending far too long trying to print just a simple O-ring
Re: New print surface material?
February 20, 2017 03:29AM
If I'm understanding what she's saying correctly, Lindy turns off her print bed heater when printing semi-flex. https://youtu.be/8XVWKrvwg14?t=156 So perhaps that would work for you?
Re: New print surface material?
February 20, 2017 04:14AM
dont know about letting the bed cool, I used a soft PLA and allowing the bed to cool made it even harder to get off.
Re: New print surface material?
February 20, 2017 06:12AM
For Printing Flexibles print onto PRintBite cold, with a high Z zero setting (ie no squish) and you should be able to easily peel off when finished. If it doesnt peel off easily, your Z zero is too low.

Not sure about "soft PLA" but you could try a similar approach. Do update what you find works for this material, could you also link me to the material so I can see it. I have not heard of soft PLA before.

@Origamib - apologies for not responding sooner I had not seen your post until now.

J


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 21, 2017 10:08AM
I've actually ran out of Ninjaflex now, it was only a sample though so I can't report back what worked in the end! (nothing did... I officially hate ninjaflex). I only wanted an o-ring to go on a vacuum chamber I'm making at the moment, and in the end I used silicone tubing cut lengthways to cover the rim of the chamber. I also tried nGen Flex, but this isn't really a flexible like ninjaflex is and did diddly-squat to hold a vacuum. I'll likely get some more though and keep this page updated. Ninjaflex has too many possibilities to give up on....
Re: New print surface material?
February 21, 2017 11:55AM
Yeah don't give up on Ninjaflex.
I did get it to work.

Lykle
Re: New print surface material?
February 24, 2017 03:14AM
I've joined this forum just for this thread!

I've been printing PLA on PrintBite for just under a week and am happy so far. I started off with some green PLA that I know needs high temperatures and it stuck great at 225/70. I then used some black PLA that I use a lot at 195C on stock bed and printed two items at 210C and 205C and was happy with them.

I then had a levelling disaster when trying some blue PLA (again normally 195C) due my Z stop coming loose, fixed that, but totally failed to get the blue to print. Lack of adhesion, curling, ripping, total frustration for 24 hours. I worked it through logically, sorted Z, levelled X bars, levelled bed, cleaned bed, and tried again. Nope, no go.

Long story short, it needed more heat. Bed set to 70C was mid to low 60s when measured with a non-contract pyrometer, so I upped that to 80C, I checked parts I'd done at 205C and 210C and noticed that 210C one showed mild signs of curling in the first few layers and the 205C one even more, but they were big parts and I'd put the slight curve down to me pulling them off the bed before totally cool.

Tried again at 225C/80C and away we go! This time it was a 190mmx190mm bed level test and I got *very* slight curling, which I put down to perhaps those two corners needing more cleaning, but I've just checked the gcode and that had bed at 70C. Oops, must regenerate/check all existing gcode when changing settings.

Since deciding that 225C/80C is the way to go, I've had nothing but good prints for 12 hours and it's doing a six hour print today while I'm at work.

Get it level, get it clean, and get it very, very hot!. 225C may be OTT but I'm dropping to 205C after the first layer and suspect I could easily go a lot lower.

OK, this is more hassle than printing on stock bed ever was, but the bottom finish is *stunning* and just being able to lift parts off by hand makes up for it.
Re: New print surface material?
February 24, 2017 06:34PM
@gadgetmind - glad to hear you are having positive results in your first experiences with PrintBite. A few tips to keep in mind that will make things easier and less hassle for you.

Regarding temps, if you allow the bed to sit a little once target temp is indicated, there will be more heatsoak through to the top surface, and you may find you can use slightly lower temps. A lag occurs between indicated thermistor temp and true top surface temp.

Levelling and cleanliness is important - not having to remove the bed surface nor use of force to remove finished parts means the bed will not be disturbed and remain level.

The temp delta for transition between good adhesion and poor adhesion is quite small - only a few degrees. More time and experience using the surface will find yourself dialled in better.

If using PLA you will likely be using print cooling fans. Try to ensure these fans are blowing on the part, and not cooling the bed although a tricky balance admittedly. If using print fans, use of a skirt say 20 lines, with a distance to object of 0-5-1mm will in effect give you a "detached brim". This can help deflect breeze from print cooling fans, and help insulate the bed around the footprint of the printed object. Turn fans on a bit later, with progressive speed increase. Use of 0.2mm bottom layer height may also help.

If you are not touching the bed with fingers, no need to clean after every print. I rarely clean my bed, usually just heating up and hitting print. I will monitor by eye the first lap or two of the skirt just to make sure the bead of filament looks good. With more use you will begin to notice the visual clues of the filament on the bottom layer.

HTH


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 25, 2017 12:51AM
I'm doing 215C and 0% fan for 0.2mm 1st layer and then 205C and 100% fan for all other layers regardless of thickness of other layers. I'm sure I'll tweak later.

I tried the skirt cum brim approach on a difficult part and it didn't seem to help but I didn't have temperatures right then so I'll try again. I also tried heat soaking bed for a while, but as I say, other issues clouded matters.

With the 215/80C combination, 2-3 different PLAs have gone down fine, and I'll be trying two others today.

I'd got with the stock bed that I didn't have to level very often as I've upgraded the grim Wanhao stock carriage for a 4mm one, but I did have to use a lot of force to remove prints and had ripped a few holes in it. The transition to glass and PrintBite wasn't totally smooth but my wayward Z stop was responsible for 75% of this and me not keeping careful regards of temperatures I'd tried for the other 25%
Re: New print surface material?
February 25, 2017 02:58AM
100% fan so soon and sudden will work against you. Most slicers allow you to configure cooling that comes on gradually over the first few layers.

Given the conditions it sounds like PrintBite has been doing a pretty good job smiling smiley


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 25, 2017 07:23AM
OK, I've seen a bit more curling and had kicked off a print with 0% fan first layer going up to 100% by 0.8mm before reading your message. I'm also trying 5 skirts at 0.5mm.

As for a good job, yes, and the cases of curling I've had have all been on parts where it doesn't matter and those I needed to look great on the bottom look great!

Dunno if you'll be able to see this but it's a printed "console" panel for some aquarium thermometers and it looks great with the PB finish.

Aquarium console
Re: New print surface material?
February 25, 2017 08:03AM
20 skirts, fan to 2mm, very nice console smiling smiley


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 25, 2017 06:20PM
Yeah, maybe even less fan as got some curling going on. Two prints, back-to-back, exactly the same gcode, one perfect and one a total loss to curling off the bed.

What's that all about?
Re: New print surface material?
February 25, 2017 08:40PM
Could be any number of factors but from previous posts possibly your Z stop doesn't have good repeatability. PM or email me if you need support.


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 25, 2017 11:36PM
Z stop fine and first layers look to go down true even for fine detail.

I watched 1st 5 layers go down on an overnight print and they looked beautiful. I did 5 skirts and didn't go to full fan until 2mm, but after I retired, it's curled up from the edges and separated from bed.

I'm going to crank the bed to 85C (at thermistor) and try printing just one of the three parts. If it still struggles, then I'll let it cool and get out the acetone.
Re: New print surface material?
February 26, 2017 12:39AM
Curling again at 225/85 with bed measuring 75C at corners of object during and after print aborted. Fan up to 80% at 2mm. It's really odd as I did a lot of prints yesterday in various colours with no issues including three with this same filament.

The 1st layer could maybe be squished into the bed a little more but instructions say to gap a little larger with PB and even small circles etc on my 1st layer are going down clean, and these are the type of feature that usually pulls off if levelling is bad.

However, I'm printing a 0.2mm 1st layer and the skirt measures at 0.24 with the calipers, so maybe I do need to be closer? I've never taken calipers to a skirt before.
Re: New print surface material?
February 26, 2017 04:10AM
My borosilcate glass isn't flat. When gapped to 0.05mm at the two edges, a 0.1mm feeler passes easily in the middle. When I put in on flat granite it rocks, and with a stright 8mm rod across it, the bend is clear.

I've ordered a new bit - what's involved in moving the PrintBite across?
Re: New print surface material?
February 26, 2017 07:20AM
@gadget - pm sent


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 26, 2017 10:51AM
Thanks.

Printing at the edge of the bed where I can be sure of level and dropping bed to 70C (so probably 65C in reality) has got me printing again with no curl.

Working theory: I upped bed to 80C to see if I could get better adhesion but issue was bed low in middle due to non-flat glass. Extra heat closed gap but meant that PLA was still flexible and stress from layers above ripped it free.

More glass ordered, two pieces from different vendors to make sure!
Re: New print surface material?
February 26, 2017 03:25PM
Hi Mutley,
You ask on your website to select the nearest size to the actual bed dimensions and that you'll trim it to the required size. Do you mean to select the nearest LARGER size or the actual nearest size?
Thanks.
Re: New print surface material?
February 26, 2017 03:36PM
@anvoice - nearest larger and I will trim it down.

"To keep costs and prices as low as possible we carry a range of standard sizes. If you require a size that is not listed, please select the nearest size that your required dimensions will fit into, and add a note when checking out and we will cut to size at no charge."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2017 03:40PM by Mutley3D.

Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 28, 2017 07:20AM
An interesting challenge for fellow PrintBite users - Small but complex parts.

I've recently been trying to print the pangolin from thingiverse, and it's tricky. PrintBite needs maximum surface area, but to print the entire pangolin in one go has alot of small complex parts, and even a small brim would be hard to remove and stick the parts together. To top it off the parts have a harsh 60-70 degree overhang at the start meaning fans have to be running. Tips, tricks? A raft is probably the way to go but I'm not a fan....
Re: New print surface material?
February 28, 2017 10:35AM
Origamib - the post seems a little short on info.

Do you have a link to the specific item/file as there are a few shown in a search. And what material are you trying to use? I woldnt use a raft, nor even consider thinking about it, as this would be worse than a brim no?

I am not sure on the point you mention about "requiring maximum surface area". The footprint of a part is its footprint, and will stick on PrintBite surface. There is no claim that PrintBite can defy laws of physics or properties of molten plastic when it comes to overhangs. And does the item have to be printed in one go?

Ultimately I would advise getting your temp dialled into the specific material you are intent on using, for example when printing a benchy, the front lower bow section with steep overhang can be made to look perfect or imperfect with just a few degrees (ie <5) nozzle temp difference.

If you need to run fans, I would suggest using a skirt of say 20-30 lines, if you need to protect the heatbed from a cooling fan breeze. Also make sure your fans are optimal and directed at parts being printed instead of more inclined to the bed. Also try using a low speed on the fans. Cooling doesnt need a gale, just a light breeze, so be careful not to over cool.


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
February 28, 2017 11:40AM
I managed the pangolin on printbite in both PLA and PETG, I don't have the room to do it all at once though so it was in four sections plus a plate of limbs.

It was a bit of a challenge, with the pointy ends of the shell segments always peeling up at first. I had to run the PLA quite high (no squish on the first layer) and hot to achieve success, the PETG used pretty much the same settings.

I did have a problem with the toes on the feet, slic3r seemed to leave too big a gap between the perimeters on the toe points so i switched to only one perimeter and that worked OK.

Cheers,
Robin.
Re: New print surface material?
February 28, 2017 03:55PM
Quote
Mutley3D
Origamib - the post seems a little short on info.

Do you have a link to the specific item/file as there are a few shown in a search. And what material are you trying to use? I woldnt use a raft, nor even consider thinking about it, as this would be worse than a brim no?

I am not sure on the point you mention about "requiring maximum surface area". The footprint of a part is its footprint, and will stick on PrintBite surface. There is no claim that PrintBite can defy laws of physics or properties of molten plastic when it comes to overhangs. And does the item have to be printed in one go?

Ultimately I would advise getting your temp dialled into the specific material you are intent on using, for example when printing a benchy, the front lower bow section with steep overhang can be made to look perfect or imperfect with just a few degrees (ie <5) nozzle temp difference.

If you need to run fans, I would suggest using a skirt of say 20-30 lines, if you need to protect the heatbed from a cooling fan breeze. Also make sure your fans are optimal and directed at parts being printed instead of more inclined to the bed. Also try using a low speed on the fans. Cooling doesnt need a gale, just a light breeze, so be careful not to over cool.

[www.thingiverse.com]

The pangolin is a very popular print at the moment, it has print in place joints and is essentially multiple shells that print together to make a moving pangolin. To print the entire pangolin requires almost the entire length (corner to corner) of my 216x216mm bed.

PrintBite works better on larger surface area prints, but the pangolin has multiple parts with a very small surface area. It is difficult to increase this surface area with a brim or raft as this could cause the parts to stick together and be difficult to remove. A raft would work but is not an elegant solution (in my opinion).

The harsh overhang is fine in PLA if you use fans, I'm not asking to defy the laws of physics. If you use the fans on the first few layers then adhesion suffers with PrintBite, but this is unfortunately where the overhang exists. A raft would help fix this.

I believe it is possible with PrintBite without a raft, and as you say it will take dialing in, possibly much further then I have already but I do use PrintBite on a daily basis and have been for quite a while. I would be interested to see how other people have overcome the challenge. I could also print the body in smaller sections, but I think this ruins the fun of the challenge.

I have found that the ribs at the center tend to come up first, maybe this is because my bed is hotter (or colder?) at the center but my bed is 5mm aluminium tooling plate so I believe this is unlikely. The parts are longer in the center with a slightly slimmer profile so perhaps the fans spend too long here and temps drop just enough to lose adhesion. Once I've got some print jobs out of the way I'll go back to this and see if I can print a perfect pangolin with no raft.
Re: New print surface material?
February 28, 2017 06:40PM
@Origamib - Apologies, i follow you now. I'm not that upto speed on thingiverse stuff, hardly time to scratch my butt here sometimes.

Have downloaded and will have a go in the next couple of days/week if I can find a break for one of the machines.

Cant say I have ever noticed a difference between small or large footprint parts on PrintBite. Of course though an inverted pyramid or truncated cone might have issues on a moving Y bed but thats not quite the type of issue your referring to.

Bottom layers are obviously critical on any print, if the bottom outline/perimeter has gone down nicely, ie not squished with bulbous wavy edges there might be issues (akin to glass without deburred edges prone to cracking from the sharp edges).

Sometimes (and this might be a thought) during travel moves on a bottom layer one can see the trails of the hotend oozing some plastic, as it travels without a retract. The next outline being printed can be a little short on plastic readiness if that makes sense. There is a setting in Cura that determines distances that must be travelled before a retract might occur, setting this to zero can increase the times a retract will occur between travels. This might help stop the loss of plastic that occurs during a travel move on the bottom layer, will result in next printed outline having a good start. The need for slightly elevated temps can work against this in some cases.

I guess its Pangolin challenge on smiling smiley

(btw some interesting PB news coming soon)


Flex3Drive.com
Re: New print surface material?
March 03, 2017 02:14AM
I'm up and running again with many thanks to Mutley3D for service well above and beyond what can be expected.

This really is a product that you can buy and be certain of great support and excellent service.

I'm not going to throw my original bit of glass away, but it's so bent that it'll probably fly back to me!
Re: New print surface material?
March 05, 2017 07:43AM
Now getting great results with PrintBite.

I've dropped bed to 65C as I was still getting some curling at corners at 70C and am printing bottom layer at 210C for PLA.

BTW, I'm finding I do need to clean with acetone every few prints. I just printed a couple of parts that came out fine, went to do two more from same gcode without changing anything, and circles on the bottom layer tugged free. I hit stop, turned off printer, cleaned bed with acetone, kicked it off again, and every single circle was perfect versus all ripped the previous time.
Re: New print surface material?
March 05, 2017 08:54AM
Just a thought, but do you oil your PLA like some do to stop hot end jams?
If so then maybe that's affecting the surface.
Re: New print surface material?
March 05, 2017 09:02AM
Nope, no oil, but I was toying with the idea. Maybe not!

My printer is in an enclosure too, so nothing from the environment worth mentioning.
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