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New print surface material?

Posted by Mutley3D 
New print surface material?
October 05, 2015 07:30AM
OK so theres a useful print surface ive been testing over the past year, you can find out more about it here [www.mutley3d.com]

My question is, would there be a need or demand for it? If so ill get some more in!

It adheres all common materials without use of substrates glues lotions or potions, and you wont need a pointy hat to get the parts to self release either smiling smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2015 07:33AM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
October 06, 2015 04:00AM
Hi

Any idea how it performs using an inductive sensor to sense the metal hot plate underneath?
Re: New print surface material?
October 06, 2015 04:32AM
Looks interesting!

1. Can you send me a small sample so that I can test it for compatibility with my IR sensor, [miscsolutions.wordpress.com] ?

2. Do you intend to offer it in pre-cut discs for delta printers? I would need a 330mm diameter disc.

3. What do you see as the advantages over BuildTak?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2015 04:41AM by dc42.

Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: New print surface material?
October 07, 2015 09:37AM
I did a search on suppliers of PEI sheet in the UK, and the cheapest I found is £39 for a 305mm square sheet, which is a little small for my delta. OTOH I can get a 350mm square Printbite sheet for £28. So I am still interested.


Delta printer calibration calculator, mini IR Z probe, and colour touch screen control panel: [escher3d.com]

Large delta printer, and other 3D printer blog postings: [miscsolutions.wordpress.com]

Disclosure: I have a financial interest in sales of the Panel Due, Mini IR height sensor, and Duet WiFi/Duet Ethernet [www.duet3d.com].
Re: New print surface material?
October 08, 2015 07:34PM
I might chime in here. Possibly a bit TLDR but I have been using the PrintBite surface since it was beta and have even tested some of the early on lower quality material prior to the high quality stuff Mutley3D is offering here. This stuff for lack of better words is just awesome. For fair record I did buy all the materials, this is not some sort of crappy paid testimonial or some junk like that.

I started off like most everyone else from using hair spray initially to using abs juice. I tried PEI but the stuff I ordered from McMaster had this weird issue where some areas would stick great but other areas just wouldnt stick at all. I spend most of my time in reprap IRC and Mutley introduced me to his PrintBite stuff. It sticks down to a surface similarly to how you would attach PEI but it is far better.

Ill start with the beta stuff just to give a bit of history, it was a fairly thick black sheet. I stuck it down to my glass, wiped it down with some rubbing alcohol and made sure my endstop was adjusted properly. I had to run my bed temps a bit higher than I had previously due to the thickness but that was not a big deal Mutley3D warned me of that beforehand. I started initially with the paper between nozzle and bed method. It worked but I would have intermittent problems getting a good stick on the start of a line. I ended up getting the endstop adjusted down to the point where the nozzle was just brushing the surface at Z0. You can not even get a piece of paper in there. After that I would only occasionally have issues with the beta stuff getting a good line start on small prints. Once the print was started and the print was stuck down it stayed for the duration of the print. After the bed cooled I could lift the print from the bed like picking up a glass sitting on a coffee table. For reference, here is the beta surface [i.imgur.com] after printing a 200% scaled abs benchy.

I ordered up the high quality stuff when Mutley3D told me it was available as the next step up from the beta surface. This stuff is thinner and white. I attached it to my print surface same as prior, leveled my bed to nozzle brushing surface at Z0 like before. Gave it a wipe down with rubbing alcohol again and started printing. Bed temps are back down around where I expected them to be for typical temps but I did experiment a bit and had printed ABS as low as 70c and still had no problems with sticking. Line starts always stick, abs does not lift on corners(without a brim), and once the bed cools the prints lift right off without any effort. I probably wont try it because I am too lazy but if I were to tip my printer to one side the print would literally slide right off with no effort on my part with the bed cool. Here is a print in action with the PrintBite [i.imgur.com] this one does have a brim because I had not updated my PLA slicer settings since I last used that profile like 6 months ago but it was not necessary at all.

The initial case with the beta surface there was a bit of a learning curve to get it going. I would have suggested it as a good alternative to PEI as my experiences with it were better but it still had its own frustrating little quirks. The stuff Mutley3D has moved on to offering publicly is by far simpler to get going with initially and I have suggested it to everyone in my area and local printer group as well as in IRC. There has not been a single person that has seen the surface in action on my machine thus far that was not impressed with it. Especially the part where when the bed is cool you just lift up the print like you sat it down there only a few hours prior.

Im not going to tell you that you cant live without this stuff, you can. I did. I never will again though. Its priced well and I know its not something I am going to be replacing for something else in the future. Fiddling with my bed prepping before each print is one of those parts of printing that I never enjoyed. Im not trying to blow sunshine and glitter up your butt here and make this out to be all rainbows and unicorns but at the end of the day I mounted this surface on my bed and leveled it over 3 months ago. I have taken it places since and never messed with bed leveling or re-adjusting the endstop and just started a print and walked way. It works dependably to the point that I am comfortable telling the printer to run a gcode file from sdcard and letting it warm up, home, and start printing entirely on its own. That is my experience and my opinion with PrintBite, and Im sticking to it(heh).
Re: New print surface material?
October 08, 2015 08:19PM
Do the parts unstuck so well that you could theoretically "swipe" your finished parts off with an arm remotely and print again?


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Re: New print surface material?
October 08, 2015 08:56PM
You would want to have something that would monitor the bed temp until it got below say ~30c. Then have it kick off a timer to wait say 5 minutes just to be safe, but yea I could see something like an arm or a "bulldozer" attached to something like a servo that would push the print off the bed working pretty well. You probably wouldnt want to do any prime loops or the likes unless your arm is more of a squeegee to make sure that any little layer lines like that are gone and out of the way too. The prime loops come lose just the same as the print does and slide around the bed but they seem to be a bit more "stuck" by static cling or something. Maby my fingers are just too fat to pick up that thin line easily, I usually just slide it off the side of the bed or use an xacto to help me pick it up.
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 03:01AM
Once dc42 confirms this works with his IR probe I'll probably buy a sheet smiling smiley
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 03:42AM
DC42 + Phytone - Samples in the post, should be with you tomorrow

gmh39 - yes the parts will reliable swipe off, probably you will need something like a miniature wiper blade, ie with the rubber or silcone blade

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2015 02:03PM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 05:30AM
Quote
gmh39
Do the parts unstuck so well that you could theoretically "swipe" your finished parts off with an arm remotely and print again?

[www.thingiverse.com]


Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 07:19AM
How difficult would you say it was to trim printbite to a circular bed? Are hefty scissors (like this sort of thing: [images3.cableorganizer.com] ) any good or will it have to be scored and snapped multiple times to get suitable polygon?

Cheers,
Robin.
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 08:11AM
Hi Zedsquared, unfortunately it is very tough material and scissors wont cut it. Scoring is also tough enough in a straight line, with long steel angle, workbench clamps etc, so doing it in a circle will be even harder. I am also aware of the significant potential injury risk for people attempting to do this themselves.

I do however have a largish table homebrew CNC that I have cut circular pieces with and can prob go up to 500-600mm diameter, maybe a tad more.

I will soon be able to do this on a customer basis but need to sort out a couple of things (including the troll noise higher up once i can get an admin onto it) But circular pieces may incur a small machining charge even though i dont want to charge extra for this.

See this link [imgur.com] and this link [imgur.com] i did for one of the beta testers, but note the printed pattern is not included at this time.

It does take a bit of time for setup and clamping, and also you cant use exterior clamps when cutting the circle winking smiley some black magic involved.

I will however be happy to do this as a batch of different sizes if i can get a good confirmation of the range of standard Delta table diameters.
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 08:27AM
Thanks for the info! Have you tried tinsnips or aviation shears?

FYI: My bed is a spring-form baking tin base ( borosilcate ) and comes in at 230mm dia,
The standard for Kossel Mini seems to be 170mm to 180mm.
The actual printable dia of my bed is around 180mm.

Cheers,
Robin.
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 10:32AM
Quote
Zedsquared
Thanks for the info! Have you tried tinsnips or aviation shears?

FYI: My bed is a spring-form baking tin base ( borosilcate ) and comes in at 230mm dia,
The standard for Kossel Mini seems to be 170mm to 180mm.
The actual printable dia of my bed is around 180mm.

Cheers,
Robin.

I dont think that would work very well, akin to cutting a piece of glass with scissors although possibly not as bad, but would leave very rough splintered edges
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 11:13AM
Quote
Mutley3D
DC42 + Phytone - Samples in the post, should be with you

Excellent will report back on this forum with test results. If it does work, I'm in for a sheet.
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 11:47AM
Mutley, I currently have an aluminium heatbed with glass print surface held down with clips. Is there any reason I couldn't ditch the glass and stick the PrintBite straight onto the aluminium?

I sent you a similar query on a message from your site about an hour ago - but then thought it was possibly better to ask the question here so ignore that.

Thanks.

Richard
Re: New print surface material?
October 09, 2015 04:37PM
Quote
RGN01
Mutley, I currently have an aluminium heatbed with glass print surface held down with clips. Is there any reason I couldn't ditch the glass and stick the PrintBite straight onto the aluminium?

I sent you a similar query on a message from your site about an hour ago - but then thought it was possibly better to ask the question here so ignore that.

Thanks.

Richard

Hi Richard, Probably best to apply the printbite to the glass. Depending on the bed size we are only talking an additional 50-70 grammes. And glass is less likely to warp. Also easier to replace should anything get damaged.
BTW i think you might haqve just highlighted a minor issue on my mail server. Thx winking smiley

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2015 04:38PM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 12:58AM
Quote
Mutley3D
Quote
RGN01
Mutley, I currently have an aluminium heatbed with glass print surface held down with clips. Is there any reason I couldn't ditch the glass and stick the PrintBite straight onto the aluminium?

I sent you a similar query on a message from your site about an hour ago - but then thought it was possibly better to ask the question here so ignore that.

Thanks.

Richard

Hi Richard, Probably best to apply the printbite to the glass. Depending on the bed size we are only talking an additional 50-70 grammes. And glass is less likely to warp. Also easier to replace should anything get damaged.
BTW i think you might haqve just highlighted a minor issue on my mail server. Thx winking smiley

Thanks, but my problem is not adhesion as I have that sorted - I'm looking to get rid of the glass and the clips because this adds weight, restricts the available print bed size due to the clips, and adds the potential for the glass to move relative to the heat bed. By removing the glass and clips I will be able to get about another 25mm printable area in the Y axis.

What adhesive do you use on the printbite? Is it possible to peel it off and re-glue it? If so it would be worth trying on the aluminium.

Thanks.

Richard
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 03:29AM
So have received the sample - many thanks!

Using some double sided flooring tape, it easily attaches to kapton tape (left it on my bed) and is fairly rigid once stuck.

I have a 6mm aluminium bed, and it doesn't interfer with my inductive sensor - GOOD
Have tried a few times, and works just as well as before, big positive. Just need to ensure you offset for the thickness of the material.

I had a few attempts to set the thickness, the nozzle was low, and if it had been on my aluminium bed it would have scored the metal. This material did seem fairly resistant and no observable damage.

Luckily the sample is just big enough to print a small ish object. I've configured the print area and went straight to flex.
Printing at 45 deg is great. At 45 deg, it feels quite sticky to pull off the bed - I was interested to try.

Its now doing a full print, which I'll leave to cool before trying to remove. I'll take a short video and post the removal. Likewise, I'll post the inductive sensor test.

Also once printed, I'll try sticking direct to my aluminium print bed, to address the question above.

In summary - first 30 mins looks good!

Reserve my 250 x 250 piece until I check the removal!
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 03:47AM
Quote
RGN01
Quote
Mutley3D
Quote
RGN01
Mutley, I currently have an aluminium heatbed with glass print surface held down with clips. Is there any reason I couldn't ditch the glass and stick the PrintBite straight onto the aluminium?

I sent you a similar query on a message from your site about an hour ago - but then thought it was possibly better to ask the question here so ignore that.

Thanks.

Richard

Hi Richard, Probably best to apply the printbite to the glass. Depending on the bed size we are only talking an additional 50-70 grammes. And glass is less likely to warp. Also easier to replace should anything get damaged.
BTW i think you might haqve just highlighted a minor issue on my mail server. Thx winking smiley

Thanks, but my problem is not adhesion as I have that sorted - I'm looking to get rid of the glass and the clips because this adds weight, restricts the available print bed size due to the clips, and adds the potential for the glass to move relative to the heat bed. By removing the glass and clips I will be able to get about another 25mm printable area in the Y axis.

What adhesive do you use on the printbite? Is it possible to peel it off and re-glue it? If so it would be worth trying on the aluminium.

Thanks.

Richard

Richard, by all means you can apply it to the aluminium, PrintBite is extremely durable, my concern is simpy should you ever need to remove it, the recommended adhesives are extremely strong and if for some (unlikely) reason you have to remove it, the adhesive tapes leave a residue that is very difficult (but not impossible) to remove. I have to err on the side of caution for any recommendations on useage as a supplier or vendor. A good soaking with isopropyl alcohol will soften the glue so it can be rubbed of, but it is quite stubborn stuff.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 10:35AM
Thanks, Phytone, very interested in the result.

Richard
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 11:51AM
Done a few prints today:

None of them, with my settings would "wipe off" when cool, ir room temp.

The flex print needed a fair tug to get off
The PLA print came off with a nice snap with minimal effort, but no swipe.

It needed the first layer to be fairly squished, I couldn't get a good first layer otherwise. Definitely no hairspray, or glue needed. To get it to swipe off when cool, is going to need some playing with, these are just the tests following this afternoons trial.

PLA and Printbite removal

Printbite _ Inductive sensor

Printbite and pulling flex off

I'm sold - better than Kapton and hairspray. No more replacing tape!
Gives a nice finish too!

Oh = Richard, my tape stuck nicely to the aluminium bed and printbite. Its just cheapie stuff from B&Q, but yes is a bit of a pain to remove. I'm going to drill holes and bolt it down to my bed.

Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2015 12:39PM by Phytone.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 11:54AM
Im very interested in this for the fact to can adhere to nylon. How well can this adhere to nylon? And if you got around to circular discs I'd be all in .
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 12:16PM
I'll give it a shot. Order sent.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 01:31PM
Quote
Phytone
[snip]Oh = Richard, my tape stuck nicely to the aluminium bed and printbite. Its just cheapie stuff from B&Q, but yes is a bit of a pain to remove. I'm going to drill holes and bolt it down to my bed.

Thanks, Phytone - I'll order some, I think.

Richard
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 01:44PM
Quote
Phytone

None of them, with my settings would "wipe off" when cool, ir room temp.

The flex print needed a fair tug to get off
The PLA print came off with a nice snap with minimal effort, but no swipe.

It needed the first layer to be fairly squished, I couldn't get a good first layer otherwise. Definitely no hairspray, or glue needed. To get it to swipe off when cool, is going to need some playing with, these are just the tests following this afternoons trial.

I'm sold - better than Kapton and hairspray. No more replacing tape!
Gives a nice finish too!

Oh = Richard, my tape stuck nicely to the aluminium bed and printbite. Its just cheapie stuff from B&Q, but yes is a bit of a pain to remove. I'm going to drill holes and bolt it down to my bed.

H Phytone

Flex filament - will need a tug, but if you can adjust your z height you might get an improvement, but yes flex materials will not "self release"

PLA Filament - See how you go, you should be able run a nice bead with no squish which will reduce end of print tack greatly, possibly increase filament or bed temp for that bottom layer. Adhesion may differ slightly between the different blends/colours of PLA, but looks good.

Bolt down - Not sure I would go this route as the direct contact patch of the material, or lack of it without adhesion, may affect performance. You may have to increase temps significantly, although im not saying it wont work. Just take it into account if you do have adhesions problems after going to such an arrangement.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 01:50PM
Quote
3DRapidClone
Im very interested in this for the fact to can adhere to nylon. How well can this adhere to nylon? And if you got around to circular discs I'd be all in .

Nylons do very well on this material without having to make any special preparations or changes to the machine. Ill be getting round to doing circular pieces this week, if people wish to order circular, please send a PM with your size requirements and Ill cut these in a batch, and make some extra stock for the common sizes.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 02:00PM
Quote
Mutley3D
Quote
Phytone


Bolt down - Not sure I would go this route as the direct contact patch of the material, or lack of it without adhesion, may affect performance. You may have to increase temps significantly, although im not saying it wont work. Just take it into account if you do have adhesions problems after going to such an arrangement.

I'm not sure how using double sided sticky tape to fix printbite to my heated bed, is any different to bolting it to the heated bed. Or is there some chemistry which transfers heat through the sticky?

Thanks for the comments, will play more when the order comes through to see if I can reduce post print tack.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 02:57PM
Quote
Phytone
Quote
Mutley3D
Quote
Phytone


Bolt down - Not sure I would go this route as the direct contact patch of the material, or lack of it without adhesion, may affect performance. You may have to increase temps significantly, although im not saying it wont work. Just take it into account if you do have adhesions problems after going to such an arrangement.

I'm not sure how using double sided sticky tape to fix printbite to my heated bed, is any different to bolting it to the heated bed. Or is there some chemistry which transfers heat through the sticky?

Thanks for the comments, will play more when the order comes through to see if I can reduce post print tack.

Not quite sure either in honesty. In early testing it was quickly understood the material had to be stuck down good and proper, my bed heater hits 140+ no problems so it wasnt lack of heat that reduced adhesion performance. Heat could induce bowing into an unrestrained sheet since the top will be cooler than underneath.

As a supplier I have a "recommended usage" that I know works. I try to offer advice as the supplier aswell if people want to try something a bit different that might suit them better. Im happy to offer support in these cases aswell, but I keep to my fall back position of "recommended usage" which is a tested and known good usage.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2015 02:58PM by Mutley3D.
Re: New print surface material?
October 10, 2015 03:20PM
OK. I'll stick with the supplier recommendation.......
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