3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point

It's back again: [www.thingiverse.com] !

It doesn't make sense deleting something that has been published to the entire world for months.

The working bearing would be a good test of soluble support material. It must be a fit tricky with breakaway support.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

richrap Wrote:
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> If it is silicone I'm interested to know how well
> it would work for Mendel. Could you not just use a
> Silicone baking sheet?
Yes, probably, but you would have to find some way of gluing it down. RTV silicone adhesive should do the trick.

Silicone seems like quite a clingy material, and it is high temp, so could be a good bed material. They paint it on so need a raft because it is rough. Baking sheet might be better option for raftless building. I would hate to have to go back to rafts.

>I guess it could be a
> silicone/acetone mix to keep it sticky or soak
> into the base material?- They use a heated bed, so
> it must have some sort of use. Maybe they print
> much faster so it's getting flung about a bit
> more? the Youtube vid was quite quick printing the
> little pots.

I can fling stuff about at 100mm/s and it never comes off. I think the warping forces are far more than those due to changes in momentum.

>
> I guess there is no reason why you couldn't run
> PLA on it?

PLA tends to stick to more things than ABS, I think it is because the base monomer is an acid, so I would guess that it would stick if ABS does.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

I don't think they play with the heat or anything to weaken the bond between the printed object and the support structure. That would require waiting for the nozzle to heat/cool, which is not shown in the videos. I think the part of the support material that makes contact with the object is just a series of very small blobs, forming a perforation. The site does show a chisel being used to separate the support structure.

I think this support structure is a great improvement, and would love to find a way to add this capability to one of the gcode-generating packages for reprap/makerbot.

I'm not sure that a smooth silicone matt would work (though it would be great if it did, has anyone tried it?). I'm new to this stuff, but it appears that they paint their platform material so as to make it as rough as possible. The plastic on the bottom of their support structures (even flat-bottomed items have a few layers of it, slightly wider than the object, like a raft) seep into the cracks and grip it as they harden. This would leave a very rough texture on the base, but that part is always broken off.

They may not want to answer questions about their support structures, but I sent an inquiry in response to their free model printing offer asking to have a model printed, and requesting that the support structure be left on so that I could examine it. We'll see if anything comes of it.

I think I may be able to get the bottle stl, give me a week and I'll post it

I really love their very smooth, sweet and gentle way of describing things and procedures and of responding to questions on their website and forum. There must be something very noble in their culture to produce that kind of reaction.

AFAIL(earned), China is a culture where copying what the masters do is very honorable. So please don't accuse them of stealing, this might be extremely impolite, and might be seen as stupidity and arrogance ("how can you be knowing and advancing without learning from others?") from their point of view.

So I'd rather suppose they will be happy and even honored to see when their fine ideas are copied. And fine ideas there are! Their design is interesting. Clean, simple, easily-stow-away-able (just an "L", no big volume), with precision linear bearings (costlier than M8 studs), single board PCB (cheaper than many boards with more surface area), cheap metal sheets, easy to build, software with good usability (e.g. really[ serving the user), and so on.

Keeping things secret probably is a strategy of (commercial) war (only, e.g. no law and not dishonorable but rather witty). If you read Sun Tsu, this seems very obvious. But do we want to be ennemies ?

So please, let's treat each other as fellow human beings with just a different background, and things will work out nicely. Every one can learn from each other.

I'd love them to talk a bit about their point of view. Clearly they are reading here (so posting "war tactics" here is stupid*), so please, go for it, participate! (Don't worry about being very frank -- The "West" has it's share of bad behavior "items" and need's these to be named and opposed.)

Anyway, there is no way they can keep their secrets, because anyone can simply buy a machine and "take it apart". There are not just the people on this forum who will want to know, but also the companies in the sector which I suppose will quickly order these machines to know exactly what they do and can't do.

*1. because you would do it without annoucing it if there were a conflict, and 2. because making yourself an ennemy is stupid in itself.

Well I don't think it would be entirely unfair to categorise the Chinese economy as a whole as a great big lolloping Goliath of capitalism spewing CO2 and devouring the average (indeed honourable) Chinese working man in it's wake ... but as you say UP! do seem warm and fuzzy and welcoming, particularly after reading the rather charming blog

"I think I love needle nose pliers and carving knife more. Maybe I have special love for tools, since I like making things by myself. But now I love them is because I was satisfied with the excite I got when I separated models from the support material. I have a sense of honor, just like it is me creat the models with hands. What a wonderful job I have done!"

Priceless! So there's no reason to dislike.

And indeed CO2-spewing-average-Joe-munching Behemoth's of modernity aren't confined to the East nor is commercial copying, German manufacturer of studio and recording equipment Behringer comes to mind who are constantly ripping stuff off.

There was a time when Far Eastern manufacturing quality was appalling (now it's often excellent and even superior) and I think many people, especially older, remember that with a little trepidation.

Nophead,
That was great you were able to re-upload the filament supplier. They did have a second Item on thingiverse as well. Could it have been their extruder part. Also, I think it would be a good Idea for the people of UP! to load there printable parts on thingiverse. People would be more willing to buy the machine if the possibly more breakable parts could be made in-house than over seas and shipped. Once somebody buys the machine, they would probably reverse engineer the plastic parts anyways. "IF" I ever got one of these machines, I would like to know what breaks often and how to buy back up parts in advance or find local suppliers.
Thank you!

Mark

I assume that the Thingiverse part was deleted because PP3D were probably the ones who originally uploaded it, as a courtesy, but took it down when they found people using it to accuse them of plagiarism.

As for the Chinese economy spewing CO2, this is going off-topic, but I should mention that while they certainly do produce a lot (more than any other country), there are also a lot of people in China (more than any other country). On a per-person basis, people in Canada (hello) and the USA produce far more CO2 than a person in China. And that's even before taking into account that a lot of the pollution they have to put up with is from manufacturing cheap stuff for wealthy people in the rest of the world.

Anyway, I agree that PP3D has presented themselves in a very sweet and endearing way on their website, and they've also succeeded in putting together what appears to be a printer of highly impressive quality, with user-friendly software and a lot of innovation. Their offer to print free parts is exceptionally generous. Instead of being hostile or jealous, we should look up to them as role models and try to improve the RepRap to their standards. And if people in the RepRap community want to buy UP! 3D printers, I only see that as a good thing; they seem like they might make better RepStraps than a Makerbot, and lower the entry barrier into our hobby.

It's clear that they've had contact with and been inspired by the RepRap project; their use of printed parts in the printer itself shows that they've taken to the philosophy. Let's not burn our bridges, OK?

Quote
jbayless
I assume that the Thingiverse part was deleted because PP3D were probably the ones who originally uploaded it, as a courtesy, but took it down when they found people using it to accuse them of plagiarism.

More than likely since the person that put it up by GuoGe and if you click on his info he is from a firm in China.

BUT what they should have done was to add a detailed description indicating that it is part of the UP! printer and provide a link to their web site. That way they could have taken rightful credit and obtained free advertising and good will.

Deleting it was JUST PLAIN STUPID IMHO...

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Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse

Yeah, probably, it would have been better if they'd done that. But on the other hand, we shouldn't have accused them of plagiarism.

Maxim once asked me sign a non-disclosure agreement for a datasheet they had previously published on their web site and then deleted. The agreement required me to promise not to disclose something they had already disclosed to the entire world! Needless to say I refused to sign it and just used a web archive to get it instead.

Yes I can't see any signs of plagiarism, their printer seems pretty unique to me.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

They published some Photos from the inside of their printer:

[pp3dp.com]

Yes, but I noticed that the motherboard photo shows the side without a microcontroller chip, stepper drivers, interface chip, etc. More protecting business secrets I guess.

I must also apologize for my earlier harsh words about copying designs or code. They have a very clean, elegant design, even if it costs more at discount that what we are making. If they prove rugged and reliable in the field, they can only help to spread the word that people can own their own 3D printer, and that leaves then just one step away from making their own 3D printers, and certainly helps make it more believable to the common man/woman/child, so that they would be willing to try our designs.

Mike

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2010 02:42PM by rocket_scientist.

That's the funny think about THIS section of the community, we are some what commercial product hating in general. Seriously, if this thing was $700 out the door with a stepper extruder, HBP, and completely open source we would be claiming rip off because they turn a $50 profit, and don't upload a mcmaster carr quick order sheet .

One of my neighbors is from China, and when I showed him my Makerbot, this Chow Yun-fat looking 6'0 tall dude started giggling like a school girl (his wife still picks on him about it). I am printing him a Mendel right now and he already has 2 cousins that are PLANNING to spending their whole weekend doing 24 hour print marathons printing theirs. Once RepRap get's a hold in China, it's going to explode. It suits their demeanor.

As far as the board, dimes to donuts it's just your standard off the shelf CNC board, and they are going the same route that Profound Devices did, but without trying to do it on the cheap.

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repraplogphase.blogspot.com

jbayless Wrote:
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they've also succeeded in putting
> together what appears to be a printer of highly
> impressive quality, with user-friendly software

No, that software just works on MS Windows! Where is the user-friendly?

The only expressive innovation/working feature I see is the support material working very well. The option to "multiply" an object in Z axis. Now that we see it's possible, let's work together to get this feature on RepRap!

The feed mechanism seems nice however nothing really expressive when compared with the actual many solutions for RepRap.

Another good thing is the no need to have a computer connected after start printing. We may achieve that in 3 months, with ARM board running @ 120MHz and SDCard.

The design is clean, I like. Theirs marketing says "open space" while it is an disadvantage(healthy problem), as NopHead already wrote.

I prefer RepRap over Makerbot, UP, etc, because RepRap is RepRapable!! and look to the story of the Wade Extruder, that is very famous (selling a lot on Ebay!) and thanks to the RepRapable possibilities :-)

I am being working on Plotting and Print Head for RepRap, something that printers which are not RepRapable and Open Source don't help me to achieve the solution for my needs.

Which company is bigger? Makerbot? pp3dp? RepRap?

I would say Makerbot is bigger, however there are already many people selling for RepRap. There are a few online shops selling for Mendel, while the same not happens for Makerbot. Ebay is full of sellings for Mendel.

We are seeing appearing on the market more cheap, simplified, professional looking electronics for RepRap! The same with the printed parts and mechanical kits! even the software is growing and there are a few alternatives. I think RepRap Mendel will soon be the bigger (if not yet).

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2010 08:05PM by casainho.

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

The makers of UP! have just taken a step in the right direction. Everyone posting here should see this: [pp3dp.com]

Quote

...

We respect every wonderful work designers and their creative designs. For every model we used from thingiverse in our website, we have given credit to their owners and linked to the thingiverse page. ... Please contact us if any designer disagrees to use his model on our website, and we will remove it in a week.

Also, they printed a Wade's (though strangely, not the version I sent them). You can see it here: [www.pp3dp.com]

whosawhatsis Wrote:
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they printed a Wade's (though strangely, not
> the version I sent them). You can see it here:
> [www.pp3dp.com];
> view=article&id=169:repraps-model&catid=57:user-mo
> del&Itemid=78

That shows that his quality is equivalent to NopHead RepRap Mendel printer. The only thing I see more advanced is the "support material".

Even NopHead have a better/cheaper heated bed solution. Also NopHead have the heated chamber.

I believe we just need to focus now on support material :-)

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New cutting edge RepRap electronics, ARM 32 bits @ 100MHz runs RepRap @ 725mm/s:

[www.3dprinting-r2c2.com]

I agree with casainho and others. Support Material has been a week point of a Mendel or reprap in my opinion. Once this trick has been on locked, there will be so much more we can do with these printers. The bad part is It waste plastic, but on the other hand, Open source plastic cost 1/10 the cost of the commercial stuff.

Mark

I saw this on their forum [www.pp3dp.com]:

"As for the plastic cost, it is $22.5/lb, and you need to buy from us, our ABS is different from RepRap. We have no other costs except for the cost of the machine, ABS material, and shipping. "

It would be interesting to find out how their ABS is different; maybe it is better for printing, somehow. That price is quite a bit higher than what can be bought in the US though. I wonder how hard it would be to hack the machine to use "standard" ABS or even PLA.

Supports should definitely be a priority for us. Many experiments have been done with alternate materials for supports, but UP! proves that same-material support structures are a viable option. I think I have mostly figured out their algorithm for generating the support structures. One of these days I'll have to look into the code of some of the skein programs and see if I can understand them well enough to modify them in this way.

I think you can do support with the same material with both the RepRap host and Skeinforge. [www.thingiverse.com]

The fact that they appear to be able to print large objects without a heated chamber leads me to believe their ABS is quite different. Also their rafts peel really easily. When I was printing ABS on rafts they were very hard to remove, or not strong enough to resist warping. I didn't use a heated bed then though.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Looking at the photos, their bottom layer consists of a wide outline filled with a raft consisting of strips spaced 2 or 3 times as widely as other rafts I've seen. The following layer is the same, but with the strips at 90 degrees and much closer together (maybe a little closer than standard rafts). The third layer is a solid one only slightly wider than the base of the printed object. This is probably to encourage the raft to come off as a solid piece. There is no visible fourth layer before the base of the object, but I suspect that the third or fourth layer makes contact with the printed part very sparsely, forming a perforation so that the solid object breaks away relatively easily. This could be done by slowing the extrude rate to leave a thinner strip of plastic, or even by moving up more than more than the normal layer height after printing the interfacing layer.

This sequence might create a raft that is stiff and resistant to warping while adhering more loosely to the build surface, but I suspect that this has more to do with the texture and composition of the build surface. I hope someone in the reprap community can find it in their budget to buy one of these to help us reverse engineer some of their innovations.

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[whosawhatsis.com]

I think that all their rafts and supports are indeed pre-perforated. But I suspect that the technique (at least how I suspect WE will need to do it) is to draw many short dots rather than a continuous but thinner stream. If the dots are staggered, then they can support the next layer like tent poles in a very large tent. Then when it comes time to separate, the little dots become the point of failure, and the raft or support pulls away.

Mike

If you don't have a flat dense top layer on the raft then you don't get a flat bottom on the object though. Also you don't get a sharp corner if it is over a gap in the raft.

With such a thick raft, with sparse lower layers, and a completely open machine I can't see the object being very hot, even with a heated bed. In which case, with normal ABS, the force to keep a large object flat would be enormous. This is why I think they must be using a plastic that warps less.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

There is no visible gap between the object and the raft, so if there is a perforation layer, it includes an outline of the object. This means no corners hanging loose. The inner part, and I'm just spitballing here, could be not only sparse (no more than 50% infill), but it could also be extruded at a lower rate while moving the printhead at full speed, which might cause the layer to settle a little lower. This would make the bottom shell of the printed part (which should be 100% infill for several layers to prevent breaking when snapping the raft loose) rest on top of it more than fusing with it.The warping force should then push the center of the part into the raft, but only after it cools enough to prevent it from fusing more strongly, while the outline (which may need to be a double or triple outline) holds the edges down. When you want to remove the raft, you just have to break the strongly-fused outline, and the center comes away easily. This appears consistent with the videos showing removal of their rafts.

Disclaimer, I'm sure you know more about the physics involved than I do. I have only had a few marginally successful prints, and never tried to use ABS or a raft, so my understanding of how they work may very well be flawed. Most of my understanding of warping is from reading blogs like yours, and from studying the shape of the lifted corners on some of the pieces of my Mini Mendel

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[whosawhatsis.com]

Yes having a solid outline to the raft underneath the outline of the object makes sense, and gets round the loose corner problem. It could expand outwards solid as well to give more anchorage. You can also make centre of the raft sparse, or a bit low to reduce the adhesion. But whenever I have done that the bottom of my objects were ribbed because there is nothing to squash the round filament flat. Adrian's idea of laying down some oil with a felt tip pen would solve the problem as you could have a solid raft with a layer of oil, or a pattern of oil, away from the edges.

I still can't see how it works well with just a single head and material though. I believe Stratasys use two materials for their breakaway support.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

There are some good pictures of the raft here: [pp3dp.com]

The only pictures I see that show the bottom side of a part at all are on this page: [pp3dp.com]

From the last image on the first link, it definitely does appear that, somehow, the edge of the part adheres to the raft more than the center.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2010 12:01PM by whosawhatsis.

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[whosawhatsis.com]

I downloaded their software but it just crashes on my WinXP machine.

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[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]

Good idea, though. The software may not save a gcode file, but it may be possible to capture the output as gcode or some other standard format that that we could decode to see exactly what it's doing. They may even be using the USB connection to load reprap-syle gcode to the controller board.

It's all Macs here, anyone else wanna give it a shot?

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[whosawhatsis.com]

Crashes for me also, the error report mentions all sorts of interesting things, like SD card Reading/Writing, so may be trying to connect to their motherboard?

Looks like it's written in Java - (CXTPToolBar, CTXColor Picker, Controlwindowslist)

It also has error messages for N1 and N2 (2 Nozzles ???)

N2 Not Hot
N2 Hot Enough

Other stuff in the error report (Just a quick scan) -

Can't Find 3D Printer
Status Please Initial printer Please turo on or Link Printer

SD Write Error

SD Read Error

Save Data to SD

Platform Not Heating

JogCmd Error

MOTOR_ERRORSTOP

No Nozzle Open

N1 Open

N2 Open

Change Nozzle Time %d

Check Door %d

Check 24V power

Check Work Room Fan %d