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3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point

Posted by richrap 
3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 02, 2010 01:08PM
Just spotted this - 3D printer from China

They have a Forum (sort of) - [pp3dp.com]

Nice design - Stick a little Apple on it, paint it White and it will sell bucketloads yawning smiley

They seem to have support material working, single head design.

I'm going off to look at my pile of bits in the garage...

At least got my ABS and FTDI interface board today, come on and send me my electronics and motors.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 02, 2010 01:34PM
Interesting extruder design, with integrated filament guide. I wonder if there's any feedback on that DC motor, or if they're running it Makerbot style.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 02, 2010 02:21PM
Or perhaps that's not a part for their extruder, come to think of it. Not sure.

I'd like to wait and see a review before I buy one..
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 02, 2010 02:35PM
There's a video of it printing here:

[www.youtube.com]

Actually looks pretty slick. The little DC motor on the side looks like it just gives it some feed off the spool every few minutes to prevent it from jamming I guess.


--
Tony Buser http://tonybuser.com * http://reprap.org/wiki/User:Tbuser#Projects
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 02, 2010 06:36PM
Ah - that feeder motor is very clever.

It looks like their support material is also ABS?
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 02, 2010 10:29PM
I still like the Mendel cartesian robot design more.

The support material is ABS, but it must be at a different temperature by the looks of it.
The site doesn't mention use of any other plastics other than ABS, so for me thats a downer, all that wasted unrecyclable/uncompostable plastic
Looks nice, but still not the resolution really needed for final artwork. I´m kind of hoping for a low-cost 3d printer with .01mm resolution and no stair-stepping.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 03, 2010 05:44AM
MHY Write:

"I´m kind of hoping for a low-cost 3d printer with .01mm resolution and no stair-stepping."

Well that's hopefully dreaming, it would take forever for a Reprap to print a part if it had that tight of resolution. Even Top of the line Stratasys machines are not anywhere near that.


And for the machine I like it as well. Very simple design, but the price is steep! $1500 for the first 100 and $3000 for the ones after that!! Not a deal, because first off it gives the same resolution as the makerbot/Mendel, prob will not have the same following, Customer no support being from china, Smaller build area then the Mendel, No room for upgrades, Not open source, Double to Quadruple the price of the makerbot or mendel, Runs of some single Chinese chip (Asking to break) and the list goes on. If this company was smart they would sell this Printer for Sub $750 and sell in volume.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 03, 2010 07:10AM
Yup inevitable indeed. I'm looking for a CNC router for machining acrylic and creating PCBs and it looks like the Chinese machines will be the way to go there. But this is too expensive surely? it's a bit ugly too! After the first 100 it jumps to $3000. Rumour has it this beauty ...

[www.solido3d.com]

... should be hitting sub $5000 before long. Nearly twice as much but many times better I'd wager.

Jim
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 03, 2010 08:13AM
Jim,
I have played with the Solido before and it is not worth the money. Lots of hidden cost like blades, glue, Plastic and more. The solido idea dates back to the first 3d printer that cut and glued paper together. I think SLA with digital light projectors will win at the end if they are open sourced able.

And I would not use the UP! machine for Cnc routing. Possibly PCB milling if you have the right tool head. Right now I am building a PCB mill that should be released in the next couple of months for the mendel and then for the makerbot. Should sell for around 750~1000 dollars for everything. IF you are interested in helping send me an email (Robotguy At bellsouth dont net )

All of the profit will go back into development & building a CNC machine Mendel style.

Mark F

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2010 03:05PM by 2robotguy.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 03, 2010 02:43PM
Oh, the UP! is $1500 going to $3000? I thought it was $750 going to $1500. That does curb my enthusiasm a bit.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 03, 2010 06:11PM
I wonder how the Up! builds support material out of ABS. Do you think the machine over cooks the top layer of the support martial to make a poor fusion? Almost over baking the ABS it? It would be nice to reverse engineer this process. Anybody going to play with the G-code to try to do this?

Mark
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 04, 2010 06:26AM
.. it does not "build" any supportmaterial, but it prints a support-structure wich seems to work pretty well... its the same ABS.. so they have a software solution, generating support structures automatically at the critical regions of the print. on the website they say you can even stack print objects above each other with a supportstructure inbetween which is also pretty cool.

they should at least contribute their code as i assume they have a lot replicatorG/skeenforge code in their software... maybe someone should ask them for it smiling smiley
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 04, 2010 06:30AM
they also have a appealing, compact extruderdesign.. with nopeheads alu-heatcore thingie?
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 04:04AM
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
*************Below is the response I received to my email from Personal Portable 3D Printer*************
(In Brackets is the response I added after I received the Email)
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Dear Mark,

Thank you for your email. We are glad to know that you are interested in the UP! printer.
Please find the my answers herebelow:


Could you tell me more about your main circuit board and what chip is it running off of? ( Atmel, arm or other?)
How does the ABS support martial work? Do you over heat it to make it no fuse all the way to the part?
How is your heated nozzle setup ran? (It does not look like your using nichrome wire, maybe a resistor heater?)
I think these questions have come down to our technological secrets, sorry I cannot let you know.

( Technological secret! It does not take a rocket scientist to open up the cover and see what chip is inside! The heated nozzle Idea looks just like Nophead, thats no trade secret! I would love to see the code, I bet a big chuck of it was stolen from Reprap or makerbots work!)


Do you have to have your computer plugged in at all time?
No. After loading the digital model, the UP! 3D printer can work independently without computer.


Is your software open source to allow for there people to improve your software? (What code, C++ Java)
Sorry, our software is not a open-source one.


Where Can I buy spare parts from if they break?
You can buy the parts from us.

(Oh that sounds great my UP! breaks and you are no longer in business. 3K down the drain!)

Thanks again for your advice. Have a nice weekend!


Kind regards,
Shirley
Personal Portable 3D Printer
www.pp3dp.com


( It seems like the Chinese do what they do best! Steal ideas (Ok maybe not steal because it is open source) repackage, and sell again. I don't think anybody should buy a UP! What do you think?)
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 04:21AM
Quote
2robotguy
I think SLA with digital light projectors will win at the end if they are open sourced able.

confused smiley confused smiley confused smiley


Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 04:39AM
i don't think anyone should buy one because it's freakin ugly!

seriously though, it's a commercial product not an open source one hence all the secrecy, capital in the form of intellectual property to protect to maximise profits to keep share holders happy etc

same old story, insatiable capitalism licks it's greasy lips and claws away with razor edged fingers at anything vaguely resembling co-operation amongst human beings such as communities or open source self-replicating rapid prototyping thermoplastic extruder machines

as soon as you place an emphasis on profits certain aspects that an open source community might value are suddenly irrelevant, are it's parts environmentally friendly, can it be recycled, is it made by a cheap exploited chinese labour force?

not that i think the free market is all bad, there are lots of great technologies and products that wouldn't exist without it

we'll just have to co-exist i guess!

if the open source community can keep the technology simple and accessible enough then those who feel inclined to build one can and those who want to throw large piles of cash down are free to do so

is reprap protected in anyway? is there anything to stop a company taking some of the technology patenting it and then attempting control open source based production?
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 04:51AM
I don't understand why they double their price in bulk. Who penalizes volume?
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 04:56AM
turingsplastic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> is there anything
> to stop a company taking some of the technology
> patenting it and then attempting control open
> source based production?


IANAL but:
"Prior Art" means anything the open source hardware crowd releases, if patented: the patent can be thrown out.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 05:34AM
> why they double their price in bulk

It's called a "loss leader". This is to make the product known and start the "buzz".
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 06:29AM
Anyone know or can guess what they paint onto the heated bed platform before a print? -

"Due to strong shaking, the object you print will not stand steadily on the platform, to settle this problem we come up with a solution which is to paint the platform with a special coating."

You should read this blog page, it's very funny - And remember you had better wear a pair of golves !

[www.pp3dp.com]
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 07:11AM
My guess would be silicone for the print surface.

The support material looks more like the way Stratasys do it than anything I have seen RepRap do. Also their video shows it making the salt pot that is a Stratasys demonstration shape. I have one and would love to get hold of the stl so I can see how my own print would compare.

Odd that says it is OK for an office environment but it uses ABS and has nothing to contain the fumes. I wonder if it has UL and CE marks!

I like their filament feed mechanism. I might copy it.


[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 07:20AM
Quote
nophead
I like their filament feed mechanism. I might copy it.

@nophead: You don't have to copy it because the filament supplier is already on Thingiverse!


Bob Morrison
Wörth am Rhein, Germany
"Luke, use the source!"
BLOG - PHOTOS - Thingiverse
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 08:18AM
rhmorrison,

I knew I saw that filament supplier somewhere. I wonder what else the used from Thingiverse?

Mark
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 09:26AM
2robotguy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rhmorrison,
>
> I knew I saw that filament supplier
> somewhere. I wonder what else the used from
> Thingiverse?
>
> Mark

How do you know they didn't put it on Thingiverse? You're throwing around a lot of allegations about the misappropriating other people's work without any proof and I think it's a risky angle to take at this point.

Remember -- we weren't first to this party either; we're rebuilding systems that use a lot of the methods and techniques that stratasys and others were using 15 years ago. I'm curious what ideas you feel like they've stolen that weren't done years before RepRap and MakerBot ever existed.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 09:39AM
Well, if any of us were RICH, ha ha, we could buy one, take it apart, reverse engineer it, and point out how much of it was stolen from open source. And if they using GPLed source code and are not releasing even the GPLed part of it, then they have violated the license and we would appropriate to publish the full code. I am not sure if that stance is a clear in the open hardware side. But if we found clear evidence of them trying to make proprietary commercial hardware out of unacknowledged open hardware from these and other forums, it would serve them right to publish CAD drawings of the whole thing, and point to existing files for all the parts they used unchanged.

On the other hand, I have WAY to much other things to do, some of which are trying to advance reprap, to wast time on such petty pursuits. If they manage to sell a number of them to small offices and hobbyists, it will in the long run help make what we do more popular, especially when they discover it is cheaper with us, open so you can see as deeply into the black box, or as little, as you like, and we not just freely, but ACTIVELY encourage people to make there own to sell or give away. They are just greasing the skids for our own eventual, WORLD domination! winking smiley

Mike
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 10:11AM
Well the filament supplier has mysteriously disappeared from Thingiverse so I never got to see it.

I doubt there is any RepRap open source code in their stuff, it looks a lot better to me.

In terms of open hardware I think there is no protection in law because copyright does not apply, as was discussed in these forums a while ago.


[www.hydraraptor.blogspot.com]
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 10:57AM
If it is silicone I'm interested to know how well it would work for Mendel. Could you not just use a Silicone baking sheet? I guess it could be a silicone/acetone mix to keep it sticky or soak into the base material?- They use a heated bed, so it must have some sort of use. Maybe they print much faster so it's getting flung about a bit more? the Youtube vid was quite quick printing the little pots.

I guess there is no reason why you couldn't run PLA on it?

I quite like the design, and the size. it's at least different from darwin, mendel and the makerbot.

I have a fixed build platform on my repstrap, but I do like the look of this design. I may contact them next week and ask a few more questions... I'm sure it's going to be one of many to come out of the far-east. Hopefully we can learn something from these and use it to improve ours.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 11:52AM
>>>>The support material looks more like the way Stratasys do it than anything I have seen RepRap do. Also their video shows it making the salt pot that is a Stratasys demonstration shape. I have one and would love to get hold of the stl so I can see how my own print would compare.<<<<

@Nophead

My best friend and I want to see the "working" bearing printed.

It’s an excellent test, would love to see which printer is best for this.
Re: 3D Printer from China - It had to happen at some point
August 06, 2010 12:37PM
I don't get why people seem hostile about this. Their printer looks to be a very high quality, low-cost RepStrap. Isn't that a good thing for all of us?
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