Peachy Printer - $100 Photolithographic printer

IDK who in this community has seen this one, but I'm curious to know what reprapers think of it.

[www.kickstarter.com]

[www.peachyprinter.com]

It certainly looks like a very different approach to any of the photolithographic printers I've seen before.

The galvo's are nothing new, but the saltwater resin lift is, I would not have thought that resin and saltwater should be mixed, but obviously can, so well done to them.

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Random Precision

Some interesting ideas there, the drip system is a simple solution and eliminates a Z stage. I am not keen on the idea of using the sound card in a PC, but this has been used to make cheap laser show controllers.

I doubt you get 16 bits of accuracy, but even with 14 that gives decent resolution over 200mm. I expect the linearity and positioning accuracy will be a little off as well.

I guess that for most users engineering level accuracy is not that important, so it looks very promising. It would be quite easy to replace the PC with an Arduino based controller.

Also the BLENDER link is a good concept, like BOBC says, I think getting accurate parts will be a challenge but
full marks for thinking outside of the box.

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Random Precision

This is still a patent violation.. and if the project goes for as much money as it looks like it will, someone will notice! I don't know how that's all going to play out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't FormLabs have to settle with 3d Systems over their lawsuit?

iquizzle Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is still a patent violation.. and if the
> project goes for as much money as it looks like it
> will, someone will notice! I don't know how that's
> all going to play out. Correct me if I'm wrong,
> but didn't FormLabs have to settle with 3d Systems
> over their lawsuit?

Good point, I had forgotten that. It seems they are "in talks" [www.sparpointgroup.com]

There was another laser-resin printer on Indiegogo, possibly if you keep it small scale/DIY it will stay under the radar. It seems insane that someone can have exclusive rights to pointing a laser into a bucket of resin, but that is the way the patent system works.

iquizzle Wrote:
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> This is still a patent violation..

Which patent are you talking about?
I have searched around for two days and I could not find any patent claim that would cover the dripping mechanism, Can you name me one please?
The rest of the system is either state of the art or not covered by any patents. That is at least what I could research. If you have any other information please come forward and name the patent number and holder.

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maboo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> iquizzle Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is still a patent violation..
>
> Which patent are you talking about?
> I have searched around for two days and I could
> not find any patent claim that would cover the
> dripping mechanism, Can you name me one please?
> The rest of the system is either state of the art
> or not covered by any patents. That is at least
> what I could research. If you have any other
> information please come forward and name the
> patent number and holder.

[www.google.com]
I believe it is not to do with the technology/hardware which expired about 8 years ago, it is to do with the generation of weaker support material. But for my sanity I don't attempt to read patents thoroughly.

Hi,

Google Patent of Disputed 3dS vs. Make1

This is the patent, it appears to be part curing of the 3d part to cope with lack of support in areas.

I'm not sure it applies here, on the Peachy Printer.

The article mentions Kickstarter were dragged into the dispute on some level so I'd hope that KS would have passed this on to Rylan Greyston before commiting to run a KS project.

I've joined the KS on this one, I hope it goes well.


-AS

how strong are the parts made from resin ?
can they compete with PLA and ABS at strength ?

thanks,
mihai

Well, I see a number of good ideas, too. Setting aside the claim to be the "smallest printer" is wrong, because with just the mirror unit you can't print, I still don't see, how this printer would work.

- The resin has to be lifted. So you need something separating water from resin which lifts without any force.

- After hardening a layer, this layer is dry. To put a new layer of resin on top, just lowering the build platform by the layer height doesn't work. You need to submerge the part for a moment or to have some sort of wiper.

While all this is theoretically solvable, it's simply a bit too much innovation for my taste and for just CAD 100.-. And you still have the problem of awkward handling, like having to wash the freshly built part with chemicals. Or like finding the zero point of the water surface. Like moving the water to the top before each print.

@mihai: UV curing resins are typically pretty brittle.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Another nice example how one can collect hundreds of thousands of dollars by just making a short nice advertising video. I talked to one of the backers: he doubts this works, but is proud to support innovation.

Lesson goal: forget about technical constraints and learn how to advertise fashionable ideas.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

haters gonna hate, I backed this because if they can turn out prints that good on a prototype, imagine what 12 months and a half million dollars will do for the quality of the prints.

mihai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> how strong are the parts made from resin ?
> can they compete with PLA and ABS at strength ?
>
> thanks,
> mihai


The kickstarter is not clear on what type of resin is being used, but there are two possibilities:

SubG : [makerjuice.com]

SubG+ : [makerjuice.com]

In either case, all the manufacturer will say is that 'Finished prints are tough but not brittle'. YMMV on what that means. If it is comparable to other resins I've used, such as polyimide, it should be fairly durable post-cure.

Edit: found a bit more.

The Tensile strength for SubG is 9,100 PSI, while the tensile strength for PLA is around 6,870 PSI - 10,000 PSI. ABS Tensile Strength is 4,300 PSI - 6,300 PSI.

ABS: [www.dynalabcorp.com]
PLA: [plastics.ides.com]
SubG: [makerjuice.com]

There are other properties beside Tensile Strength to consider, but this should give you an idea.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2013 12:44PM by PeteD.

I am a cynic, life makes you that way,
we will never go closed source heard that somewhere before.
but I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, time will tell.
As for the patent thing, some companies have been riding the gravy
train for too long, the whole patent thing needs a re-think.

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Random Precision

I backed it just because it's an interesting idea. And for $120 how can you go wrong?

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- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

johnrpm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am a cynic, life makes you that way,
> we will never go closed source heard that
> somewhere before.
> but I am prepared to give them the benefit of the
> doubt, time will tell.
> As for the patent thing, some companies have been
> riding the gravy
> train for too long, the whole patent thing needs a
> re-think.

I agree -- the patent system is totally arcane and the people it hurts the most are actually small companies and inventors. Nonetheless, it's the rules and you gotta play by 'em or you'll get thrown under the bus.

Maybe peachy won't be affected by this -- I'm not really sure. In any case, it seems similar enough to the printing process that Formlabs uses that they should be careful. More info here: http://www.wired.com/design/2012/11/3d-systems-formlabs-lawsuit/

Depending on your expectations, you can go always "go wrong" for any amount of money. If you spend $300-400 (which people seem to do time and time again) on an unproven cheap-o kickstarter 3d printer and it turns out to be something that doesn't really work well and has no quality components that you can re-use in other project, you have gone exactly $300-400 wrong. Giving your money to crooks is always "going wrong" in my book -- we have several hunks of $500+ KS garbage sitting around the hackerspace that nobody wants to touch.

I'm not saying this is true particularly about the peachy printer, it's just generally how I feel about low price point kickstarter campaigns. People are generally too optimistic that they can receive a quality product without paying the price for quality.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2013 03:59PM by iquizzle.

Quote

And for $120 how can you go wrong?

I see. People simply have that kind of money to waste. That's the whole secret

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

Yup.

Traumflug Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>

Quote

And for $120 how can you go wrong?

>
> I see. People simply have that kind of money to
> waste. That's the whole secret

---

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]

I like this idea,
I would also put $120 to this project out of being nice and the fact that this project is very innovative, I love the drip system

The guy already has had enough funding, im sure he will get more...


I would personally buy one of these for $100-$200 if its accurate or not, The look of the material would be great for random artwork around the house,
If the accuracy is hi, well that will just be a bargain, and would be really good.



im sure using a sound card will work, instead of generating Gcode, you will be generating a wav or mp3 lol, this thing will prob run off a ipod or something

TraumFlag,

$120CAD = £72.

That's less than two nights out on the razz in UK.

I've backed the KS.

Imagine what would have happened if Makerbot or RepRap had been pitched at very early prototype stages?

I'd still have put £72 towards one, warts and all.

-AS

If it doesn't work, worst case you can make a laser light show out of it. I backed it for 120 CDN.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2013 07:52AM by geoffd.

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How often I found where I should be going only by setting out for somewhere else. - R. Buckminster Fuller

[apapageek.com]

Quote

Imagine what would have happened if Makerbot or RepRap had been pitched at very early prototype stages?

They were pitched. Not by Kickstarter, but by some science funding program and university support.

The peachy people asked for $50.000, which is quite a bit for something that simple. If you really were about funding the idea, you should have stopped at these $50.000. Investing more doesn't help development.

I think many of the backers miss an important point: if you throw happily such huge amounts of money at half-baked ideas, you also slap in the face of developers trying to do quality development. Like those who work on making things reliable instead of just funny. Like those who work on increasing accuracy. Like those working on something actually usable.

That's the message of this over-funding: spit on quality, get rich with crap.

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Generation 7 Electronics	Teacup Firmware	RepRap DIY

I think I did know that about the RR and Makerbot, but thanks for correcting my error.

The other point to consider is the 2nd breakpoint this has which is 5,000 units. At which point they will be using mass production techniques.

I don't get your point about half baked ideas taking funding from developers developing Quality ideas. Cream will rise to the top, free economy, meritocracy etc. Let's get behind these quality developers with a "Slick promotional video" too and if they can do $100CAD RP, they'll get $1/2m too.

As to "Spit on Quality", I can see the problems with the system they are using, but when he's selling the entire system for less than a sanguinololu board + shields, I say let's see where this pans out to.

-AS

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2013 10:39AM by andysuth.

Some people seem to get quite jealous because they did not have this simplistic idea ;-)
Kickstarter ist not Ebay. You are a backer not a "buyer". If you get a physical product in return that works, that is nice, but the general idea is to equipp a team with funds, so they can put their idea into life. Not to buy a product from the shelf.
I am very curious to see, how they will perform. Now they have the means to buy material and pay the best engineers in the country to overcome any of the issues that may occur. They would be very stupid to waste that one-time in-your-life opportunity to build up a very innovative business.
If you buy stocks of a startup, anything can happen, you may get nice returns or loose it all. That is the game. We will see. i backed them and it doesn´t cost me sleepless nights. I like to have one early model, even if it is not perfect.
Anyone would rather have a Apple I from 1970s than an iPhone 5, no matter how well it works..don´t you ?



Apple I from 1976 sells for +300.000 USD

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2013 02:00PM by maboo.

---

Blogs:
Meine 3D Druck Abenteuer
[3dptb.blogspot.de]
FLSUN Delta Drucker für Deutschland
[flsun-deutschland.blogspot.com]
Books on 3D patents:
[goo.gl] (english)
[www.amazon.de] (deutsch)

i would like to back them but i dont want it to be like my pepple watch, witch i love by the way. just to get it a year later. though it is a lot more simple than my watch would ever be to build.

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[mike-mack.blogspot.com]

I personally talked with Rylan who designed this. When he showed me the idea (before the kickstarter), I mentioned the whole formlabs patent violation issue. He was completely unaware and didn't seem to have a plan in place for this eventuality. I do not know if any of his partners came prepared to deal with it either.

I think it is a very innovative idea - for example the use of saltwater and sound ports. However, the presentation could be misleading to those who never worked with photopolymers. Also when you build up a system on some many systems that are individually questionable, the end result will be disappointing. Also, I'm personally annoyed that it was advertised as $100 when the real price is about $600 amounts to a marketing gimmick.

For example.
1) Sound card volumes need to be calibrated or the print will look right, but be scaled down, or skewed
2) Any interference, lag, interupt, etc, in the sound card and the dead-reckoning may be affected, or the print could fail
3) Any interference on the microphone - same thing
4) Counting drops, i.e. assuming one droplet = 20 uL, is highly variable, depending on salt ratio, surface tension, evaporation, dripper hole size, stopcock setting, etc so Z height may be scaled wrong
5) Currently wires are looped by hand - need something cleaner in the future for consistency and ease of use.
6) The fluid tension of the photopolymer may need to be broken to let the heavier water sink
7) The ideal system would raise the photopolymer ABOVE the current print layer, and lower it, allowing cleaner prints. Also I'm concerned that you can only print shells with the current method because of this.
8) If you can only do perimeters, and the central space floods with photopolymer, the reflection of light within the previously cured parts will eventually accumulated enough to cure the inside
9) Wouldn't overhangs be cured without a filler? The photopolymer shown was clear, which means laser light could move fairly deep.
10) Cleaning saltwater + photopolymer - polymer is bad enough to clean on its own.
11) Do we have to buy saltwater consumables?

In combination, its too much uncertainty to worry about for my taste, and it is work. I would think people looking for low price printers are NOT reprappers but people who don't want a hassle. On the other hand I applaud what is a really affordable printer, you have to address a lot of issues to deliver.

Lets also not forget, any cats in the room will be highly affected.

my wife would say any husbands or geeks would be highly affected too..lol

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[mike-mack.blogspot.com]