New Isis3D Printer

Today 3ders.org had an article on a new printer called the Isis3D, and the text makes it sounds like an amazing jump in 3D printing. However, when I look at their printer, it looks a lot like a MendelMax 2.0, but without the linear slides. I can't find anything in the design that look really new, or that supports the marketing hype.

[www.isis3d.net]

Am I missing something?

-- John

It upset a few people on the MM google groups (rightly so). Their attribution to MM 2.0 seems to be lacking.

No you're not missing anything, they just write better ad copy than most people... And they're also preying on people's ignorance of what already exists a little bit.

In places the copy isn't that good. On the About Us page they write this...

Quote
Isis 3D
After building our own RepRap-style 3D printer, we were struck both by its huge potential and by how much it had fallen short. It was a terrible execution of a brilliant idea. The world needed an affordable and accessible machine whose print quality and reliability made it actually useful. Only then could the next industrial revolution begin.

That statement ignores the purpose of why RepRap started. To bring low cost machines to people to replicate other low cost machines. For the amount of money spent on an entry level machine the implementation is quite good. it is difficult to calibrate and requires mechanical skill from the operator but to dismiss and ignore the basis of the project show at the very least a lack of understanding what RepRap is all about. I'd agree that the gap between low end industrial and high end consumer needs to be bridged (and already has by MM2 or Mendel90 or a few others) but in that realm they're going up against Stratasys and 3DS and with laser sintering patents expiring next year they're going to need to have game to make it in that shark tank.

iquizzle, thanks for the link to the Google group. I've joined the group and posted a message (but I'm waiting for my post to be approved).

I noticed on the Google group that they said the quality of their prints speaks for itself. Hmmm. They don't have that many photos, and I didn't find any close-ups that show me what the surface quality looks like. The closest I found were the Lego-style bricks. And they showed signs of wave vertical lines indicative of backlash.

As far as I can tell, everything they're touting as being a unique selling point of their printer I already have with my MendelMax 2.0 and Kisslicer. It kind of rubs me the wrong way...

2200$ for a reprap? in 2013?

I think part of the price of that unit is the build area, at 300mm. That beats the Replicator 2 at about the same price assuming the PLA prints (as they don't officially support anything else) are about the same quality.

That 3ders.org site is a red flag for me: notice there's no author listed for any of the articles coming off their front page? There's definitely more than one author in there given the writing styles between articles.

possenier Wrote:
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> 2200$ for a reprap? in 2013?

For a high quality RepRap that isn't pre-order (i.e. is in stock), that's a good price. For a pre-order printer with two month+ lead time, I agree, that price is too high.

---

Help improve the RepRap wiki! Just click "Edit" in the top-right corner of the page and start typing. Anyone can edit the wiki!

"Support material that works."
Ehm..?

"Just $2199."
Lol, overpriced? You think?...

"a dependable and easy to use workhorse that consistently delivers top notch print quality at blazing speeds"
Are they even aware of what they are claiming?

They better be ready to have a big disclaimer and general agreement. In a 3D-printer, in my opinion, the worst factor is still in a lot of cases the person using the machine. It is really hard to make the above statements with a machine that is so much depending on the quality of the user too..

Guys, about that pricing, I think you are not considering this might be a fully assembled and calibrated printer. It is not explicit on their site, but they don't talk of a kit either.

If you compare it with a fully assembled MendelMax 2 or a Lulzbot TAZ, it's in the same price range (and $50 more actually - because of the LCD perhaps?). You might find this expensive, but just for fun, try to set a value on the time you spent assembling and calibrating your printers. Some people here have spent hours, weeks or even months to get their printers working. This has value that doesn't show in the price of a kit.

That being said I agree their marketing hype is dishonest. You don't see reputable open source sellers do that. And who would be crazy enough to buy their printer instead of from the original creator (Maxbots)...

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2013 05:32PM by NormandC.

Hi everyone,

This is Steph from Isis3D. As we've explained extensively on the google group, the Isis One is not derived from the MM2, though its frame is similar. It is a RepRap and thus shares lineage with other RepRaps, and we have learned a lot from (and credited) this community. However, this printer is the result of many months of intense R&D and if you look, is a completely different machine. Of course you are all welcome to take issue with whatever you like, but please do a little research instead of propagating rumors that are easily disproved.

Also, yes, the Isis One ships absolutely completely assembled and calibrated. Sorry if this wasn't clear on the website.

Steph

well, after many moths of R&D you could make X axis belt straight...its just detail...

Quote

However, this printer is the result of many months of intense R&D and if you look, is a completely different machine.

From the pictures on your website it's not immediately obvious this is a completely different machine, as you say. Perhaps some close-up pictures of the areas that are new/different would help us understand what you have done differently than most.

Hi Steph,

I posted a more detailed reply over in the Google group: [groups.google.com]

For others here, my main point is that my negative reaction, and I suspect that from others as well, was from the large amount of hyperbole on the web set, and the lack of information that would allow me to judge for myself. By the way, Steph had a really great post on the Google discussion about the design of their linear system.

My suggestion, Steph, would be to dial back the level of hyperbole. Don't describe this as far and above the RepRap world (I very much doubt it is). Instead, describe it as a best of breed, which it looks like it might be. I would love to see more details than I've found on your web site, and this forum is the perfect place for posts like the one on your linear rod design. I'd also like to get more details that quantify some of the statements. What does fast mean? What do the layers look like under harsh light (so we can judge for ourselves)? I think you'll find that if you're forthcoming with details, and avoid hyperbole, on this forum, you'll get a much more receptive audience.

-- John

Oh dear, could be another PR disaster in the making...

It is a legitimate question for all customers to ask "is there anything behind this marketing puff?" Expecting customers to research in detail why your product is better, is somewhat naive.

With a little research, it is not hard to see which product offerings go down well with makers, and which get a skeptical reaction. The reaction to skeptical inquiries is the second impression a company makes. If a company starts blaming customers, that is another red flag.

Although Japica was an extreme negative example of how to go about things, there are several positive examples to be found as well.

Bobc - I'm neither blaming customers nor expecting them to do research in detail. All I was asking is that people not accuse us of having stolen a design because they don't take the few seconds it would take to realize this isn't true.

John - duly noted. We'll be putting up plenty more pictures soon, and are happy to print and post anything requested (this goes for information too).

Steph

I like the name...but ahem...yeah. Isis.

Steph,

Your downloads section seems to be incomplete at the moment (Software folder is empty). Are you planning to release an assembly file at some point (like the MM2 guys did)? A STEP assembly would be nice. IMHO too few projects provide such files.

And I wonder if you shouldn't add a text file in the /Source folder to provide the license under which your files are released.

In addition to more and bigger pictures of the printer and sample prints, you really should produce some videos of your printer in action. Seeing a working printer rather than a static one goes a long way.

Steph Avalos-Bock Wrote:
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> Hi everyone,
>
> This is Steph from Isis3D. As we've explained
> extensively on the google group, the Isis One is
> not derived from the MM2, though its frame is
> similar. It is a RepRap and thus shares lineage
> with other RepRaps, and we have learned a lot from
> (and credited) this community.

Based on that statement it appears to me that the company does not understand what makes a Reprap a Reprap. A Reprap is by definition an open hardware device that can be assembled by person from components not available from a single source or using proprietary technology with the design freely available for all to use. It's certainly a derivative of a Reprap but calling it a Reprap in my opinion is trying to take advantage of the name while not contributing to the community. And I don't mean by attribution, I'm talking in terms of sharing what you have learned and the mods you've made published back to the community. I see no source files on the site, I can find nothing at Github or the Wiki. Now I'm not against closed source derivatives of Repraps but calling a closed source printer a Reprap is incorrect at best and what many would call misleading.

The term FDM is a registered trademark of Stratasys. An astute member of the community would realize this and use the agreed term of FFF. While the FDM patent has expired with the information passed to the public domain, a trademark on the term is still in force as is the term "fused deposition modeling". Fused filament fabrication is term applied to non Stratasys printers using that technology.

The Google + groups are targeted towards end users for the most part. Those that are involved in Reprap development recognize this forum as ground zero for the movement. When you make the claims that have been made with basically nothing to back them up it is likely to be dismissed by many here. The response to that shouldn't be passive aggressive and defensive but rather inviting and engaging. The company would get a better response if it engaged users here by speaking with them, not at them.

Hi again,

First, I apologize for not posting to this forum sooner. We'll get a page for the Isis One on the wiki soon and will be sharing all the things we've learned in our blog, starting with a post tomorrow on bed leveling.

Source files are located at downloads.isis3d.net. As I mentioned on the google group, files are not necessarily final drafts. I uploaded what is there so that files could be available as soon as possible. We'll be updating as we go. Videos are in the works and should be up later this week.

We're happy to answer questions, provide specific pictures or sample prints, etc., just let us know!
Steph

Quote

Those that are involved in Reprap development recognize this forum as ground zero for the movement.

Disagree. Ground zero for development is the reprap IRC. Most times this forum is overrun with people asking the same 20 questions over and over again looking for someone to hold their hand.

crispy1 Wrote:
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> Disagree. Ground zero for development is the
> reprap IRC. Most times this forum is overrun with
> people asking the same 20 questions over and over
> again looking for someone to hold their hand.


Fair point though many times when I've been on IRC it's been over run not with repeated new comer questions but with what appears to be drunken adolescent banter that has nothing to do with Reprap. The Wiki is here though.

I find this thread to be an utterly pathetic attempt to slander someones product, seriously lacking any solid argument.

As for people giving advice on how the product should be marketed, what the hell do you know about business or selling a product???

If im not mistaken the ISIS looks like it is trying to appeal to a market that might not even know what a Rep Rap is, not to mention care about what the correct definition of a Rep Rap is or its full ancestral history, I see that it is briefly mentioned on the site, why should the proprietor flood their site with information which is utterly useless
to the market that they are targeting???

I am a DIY guy myself, but it I really hate it when "makers" get all "precious" and start tearing others down just because they decide to come out with a product and add a little bit of flare and sales pitch to get the attention of a target market who is NOT one of us, therefore looking for the usual sales pitch.

Wake up and realise that, they are just doing what every other company does to market their product, its called commercialisation, its not for everyone, but it also makes technology more popular and increases its demand. and it sure doesn't hurt you!

It is a company, with a product, they are telling you how good their product is, they dont have to tell you that there is a competitor that also provides that particular feature, that is for the informed customer to figure out...

Whilst I personally love a website that supplies step by step process, Wiki etc... and tells you everything, I seriously think this would not be a good way to go for appealing to a market that just wants a ready to work 3D printer, you will just confuse the customer and make them think its a DIY project or "Too hard"

So just because you like to DIY don't have a go at someone else's business model because it does not suite you! and realise that you can hurt someones attempt at starting a viable business needlessly, by having a closed mind and a loud mouth.

I am not affiliated with ISIS in any way, I just found out they existed, I have no clue if their product is as good as they make out, pretty much like everyone else in this thread...

So before making out like something is terrible, lets give it a chance to actually hit the market and do the talking for itself....

P.s.

Steph dont listen to jealous closed minded people that need to get out of their shed and smell the real world, especially don't take business advice from them, good luck getting your product to market...