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The death of Thingiverse?

Posted by akhlut 
The death of Thingiverse?
September 19, 2012 09:10PM
[www.thingiverse.com]

[www.thingiverse.com]

3.2 License. You hereby grant, and you represent and warrant that you have the right to grant, to Company and its affiliates and partners, an irrevocable, nonexclusive, royalty-free and fully paid, worldwide license to reproduce, distribute, publicly display and perform, prepare derivative works of, incorporate into other works, and otherwise use your User Content, and to grant sublicenses of the foregoing, solely for the purposes of including your User Content in the Site and Services. You agree to irrevocably waive (and cause to be waived) any claims and assertions of moral rights or attribution with respect to your User Content.

Poor show Bre. It was fun while it lasted.

I suppose we can still use it communicate and post images our designs. I just pulled all my files down. Glad I didn't put the Prism 1.5 files up...

Thank goodness for github!

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2012 09:17PM by akhlut.

- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 19, 2012 11:06PM
Prusa is pulling his stuff off of Thingiverse!

[www.thingiverse.com]
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 02:09AM
akhlut, could you please try to explain this new sentence to non-native english speakers a bit?

"Waive" means something like "give up on", right? So, what's the breaking news here? The removal of the "enforcement" to also open source derivates? Well, I'd consider that to be not enforceable, anyways. One can almost always claim to have made a new design from scratch, with almost the same outcome. Unlike with software, the number of possible variations in hardware are limited.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 02:51AM
Mmm, I have been thinking for a while that a distributed, community owned replacement for thingiverse would be good, for persistence and backup purposes : for instance thingiverse already had some things removed due to local laws asking them to, and the content have been removed for all people around the world including those that law doesn't apply to.

I suppose now it's only a matter of time before an "opencraftiverse" popup somewhere.


Traumflug, I think what annoys akhlut and prusa here is the fact that "waive" sentence could be interpreted as a give up of the whole intellectual property. Like, publishing your "things" is giving "the company" each and every right you had on it.


As for me, I'm going to wait for a reply for a couple of days, and then will consider relocating my files.


Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 03:37AM
Quote

I think what annoys akhlut and prusa here is the fact that "waive" sentence could be interpreted as a give up of the whole intellectual property

So, GPL'd stuff is enforced to be public domain. Freedom fighters should make that happy. Apparently it isn't. Hmm.

Regarding a "community owned" Thingiverse ... what is this community? As far as I can see, there is no such instance in the real world, it's a virtual thing. Even Adrian Bowyer him selfs, besides being a cofounder of MakerBot, has gone commercial with RepRapPro these days. And I expect this commercialisation to continue, about all the hardware innovations come from there.


Generation 7 Electronics Teacup Firmware RepRap DIY
     
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 03:48AM
What will the replacement be for thingiverse?
We can't exactly go posting everything to github, sure we can host it there but where will the centralised "search engine" for parts be?
Where can we go to find that part we need but don't have time to design?
the pirate bay with their physibles? /r/thingiverse?
I am actually quite concerned if the site we all used starts stealing from the very users that made it what it is.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 05:03AM
What chaps my ass is the appropriation of any/all work uploaded by individuals to thingiverse by makerbot. Essentially they are saying "We'll host your IP and distribute it to others under a license you specify. By the way the IP is no longer yours, it is ours."

I don't care if someone downloads an object I designed and prints it - matter of fact that makes me happy that I've been able to help someone else solve a problem. But to take that object and claim it as your own and not offer me any credit for the design is a bit much. The open source movement is not strictly based on renumeration (that would be nice), rather it is a realization of self-actualization. Strip away self-actualization and open source dies.

Essentially this is a naked IP grab. Makerbot is leveraging it's user base to gather IP, which in and of itself has value. How will you feel when they make thingiverse a subscription-based service? It won't be too nice when you can't freely download the IP you generated without paying for it.


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 05:35AM
Quote
Traumflug

> Regarding a "community owned" Thingiverse ... what
> is this community? As far as I can see, there is
> no such instance in the real world, it's a virtual
> thing.

Yup, that's the idea here : not owned by an individual (or a few).
So basically, that virtual community is everyone.

I agree that at some point someone has to pay for hosting and spend time on setting the stuff up, but that can be arranged in a way that do not let them get all control on the data.


Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 08:10AM
akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What chaps my ass is the appropriation of any/all
> work uploaded by individuals to thingiverse by
> makerbot. Essentially they are saying "We'll host
> your IP and distribute it to others under a
> license you specify. By the way the IP is no
> longer yours, it is ours."
>
> I don't care if someone downloads an object I
> designed and prints it - matter of fact that makes
> me happy that I've been able to help someone else
> solve a problem. But to take that object and
> claim it as your own and not offer me any credit
> for the design is a bit much. The open source
> movement is not strictly based on renumeration
> (that would be nice), rather it is a realization
> of self-actualization. Strip away
> self-actualization and open source dies.
>
> Essentially this is a naked IP grab. Makerbot is
> leveraging it's user base to gather IP, which in
> and of itself has value. How will you feel when
> they make thingiverse a subscription-based
> service? It won't be too nice when you can't
> freely download the IP you generated without
> paying for it.

I agree and I can't remember which company did this before but I refused to use them and have even erased them from my mind just not the instance (think it was for music). I will pull my limited stuff down if I had a viable alternative but I don't. I am unhappy because I make stuff so people can print them and have fun with them not to line Adrian's and Bre's corporate pocket with all of these designs (Cube printer comes quickly to mind).
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 08:17AM
MBI has gone from bores to whores. And high-priced whores at that.


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 08:41AM
LOL @Akhlut. Very poignant.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 02:47PM
akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way the IP is no
> longer yours, it is ours."

Under their stipulated contitions Thingiverse [and anyone else they choose] have an unconditional licence to your IP. This is not quite the same as a transfer of ownership of copyright from you two Thingiverse which I do not believe is happening here.

This is similar to photos on Facebook or Flickr where you have to give them unconditional permission to do whatever they like with them.

It would be interesting to see some figures but I would stake a guess on the majority of objects on Thingiverse have an open source licence so anyone can leverage these designs for their purposes. The advantage therefore that Thingiverse have over other entities is the ability to leverage the designs without being required to comply with the open source licences chosen by the creators.
Kt
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 09:06PM
There is no reason a thingiverse alternative would need to host any user created files, it could have all the social and media aspects of thingiverse, but only host a torrent to download the user created files.

Using torrents, needing to generate an absurd TOS would be less of a concern because the thingiverse alternative never touches the files.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 20, 2012 09:15PM
Kt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is no reason a thingiverse alternative would
> need to host any user created files, it could have
> all the social and media aspects of thingiverse,
> but only host a torrent to download the user
> created files.
>
> Using torrents, needing to generate an absurd TOS
> would be less of a concern because the thingiverse
> alternative never touches the files.

I love this idea.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 04:32AM
What if Thingiverse itself is used just for the social aspect, and only torrent files are posted there instead of actual STL files?
This would be a temporary measure till an alternate site comes up to take its place.

----------------------------------------
Buback Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is no reason a thingiverse alternative
> would
> > need to host any user created files, it could
> have
> > all the social and media aspects of
> thingiverse,
> > but only host a torrent to download the user
> > created files.
> >
> > Using torrents, needing to generate an absurd
> TOS
> > would be less of a concern because the
> thingiverse
> > alternative never touches the files.
>
> I love this idea.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2012 04:34AM by peddiparth.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 05:30AM
peddiparth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if Thingiverse itself is used just for the
> social aspect, and only torrent files are posted
> there instead of actual STL files?
> This would be a temporary measure till an
> alternate site comes up to take its place.

Nice idea. Also make sure that all the description, instructions, BOM etc usually posted on thingiverse is also included in the offsite file(s). Those are as needed as the design files for someone wanting to built the thing.


Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 06:34AM
I make money out of Makerbot (a small amount) and I make money out of RepRap (a rather larger amount, via RepRapPro Ltd). The tiny percentage of Makerbot that I own means that I have no control over what they do. RepRapPro Ltd (which is run by me, my family, and friends) is completely open-source - that I do have significant control over.

Anyone interested in my views on all this sort of thing may care to see here: http://lists.reprap.org/pipermail/reprap-dev-policy/2011-February/000001.html.


best wishes

Adrian

[reprap.org]
[reprapltd.com]
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 06:57AM
akhlut Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What chaps my ass is the appropriation of any/all
> work uploaded by individuals to thingiverse by
> makerbot. Essentially they are saying "We'll host
> your IP and distribute it to others under a
> license you specify. By the way the IP is no
> longer yours, it is ours."

Part of the plan is revealed: Makerbot Physical Store. I guess you're going to be able to walk in, have them pull anything you want from Thingiverse, and they'll be happy to print and sell it commercially at significant markup.

I wonder if emmett or GregFrost have received so much as a lowly dime from Makerbot Inc for how every single promotional video or snapshot usually has the Heart Gears prominently displayed.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 07:09AM
I just compared thingiverse user content policy with shapeways. The latter, while not enforcing any form of openness, is clearly far less damageable to IP of people uploading designs !

I also reckon it read far less obfuscated and difficult to understand lawyer lingo IMO.

See [www.shapeways.com] for full file, here's just the section about models :

Quote
Shapeways
intellectual property rights in the 3D design
You, as a designer, retain all your intellectual property rights in your 3D design, including without limitation any and derivative works like 3D renders. Except for the rights and licenses specified below, Shapeways shall not use, modify or display your 3D design or derivatives thereof. By uploading your 3D design, you warrant that it is your original creation and not copied from any third party and/or entity. You warrant that your User Generated Content will not infringe the intellectual property rights of third parties. Should your User Generated Content nevertheless be found to be infringing and/or in violation of any law, you will defend Shapeways against third party claims, and be held liable for all (direct and indirect) damages and costs incurred by Shapeways with respect to such claims.

By uploading your 3D design to the Website, you grant Shapeways a non-exclusive, royalty free worldwide transferable license on your design
(i) to use it for the manufacturing of your model in order to fulfill your order;
and if you so indicate during the upload process:
(ii) to display it on the Shapeways Website;
(iii) to use and modify it for the manufacturing of your model in order to fulfill the order of any other Website user.

You can change the rights (ii) and (iii) via the model detail page of the 3D design at any time. With regard to such non-published 3D design, in order to protect third party intellectual property right owners who, in such case, may not be able to benefit from our Notice-Take-Down Procedure, , we retain the right to review and refuse any order when it, in our own discretion, appears to infringe third party intellectual property rights, or in our discretion the model does not comply with our Content Policy.

By removing your 3D design from the Website you terminate all licenses granted to Shapeways to such 3D design under these Terms and Conditions. Shapeways is however entitled to use your 3D design to fulfill orders of your 3D design that were placed before the removal; and to use your 3D design for promotional purposes, which license shall terminate 6 months after the removal of your 3D design. 3D designs are only used for promotional purposes with your explicit consent.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2012 07:10AM by DeuxVis.

Most of my technical comments should be correct, but is THIS one ?
Anyway, as a rule of thumb, always double check what people write.
VDX
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 08:23AM
... read through Adrians 'view on OS and RepRap' - especially the quoted prases seems to be the really interesting parts, relating to thingiverse too grinning smiley


Quote

Some of you may think that I am rather lax in my pursuit of those
people who would appropriate RepRap technology and close it off,
thereby breaking the terms of the GPL. The reason that I am lax (and
I am) is because I don't care about those people. I don't care about
them because I know that by closing off the path
that they have chosen, they have turned it into a reproductive cul de
sac; they have made their machine sterile.

... and ... ---0---

Quote

Every RepRap can make RepRaps. Also, every closed-source 3D printer,
and every non-replicating 3D printer, can make RepRaps. But RepRap
won't make any of them. The exponential mathematics of the RepRap
population against the rest follows inexorably. Chasing licence
infringers will make almost no difference.

If you are taking part in the RepRap project, then I hope that you
believe Open Source to be a morally and politically good thing, as I
do. But if you don't believe that, you are still welcome to take
part, by me at least. When it comes to the success or failure of
RepRap, moral beliefs are almost completely irrelevant.

It is the evolutionary game theory that matters.


Viktor
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 12:58PM
I have always suspected Bre was a self centred megalomaniac. This just proves it.

I have removed all my objects from thingiverse this evening and replaced them with a rather nice test cube.....power to the people!!!

The next question is. where is the best place to host them. I read about something on Gary Hodgsons website?
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 02:58PM
I can't help it but I have to say (been eating at me for a couple of hours now since I read it) that I expected more out of Dr. Bowyer than a simple press release sort of response. I know that is exactly what it is since he copied and pasted it in all threads he responded on. Yes, I expected more from the founder of RepRap on the RepRap forums.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 07:47PM
HEy..

I have removed all my stuff aswell...

WHAT I DESGIN, I OWN AND ENJOY SHARING

Auzze
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 09:24PM
Have you guys seen this?

Printed heart gear $250 @ makerbot store plus other stuff.

Flickr
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 09:29PM
I have no trouble in that if that is something they designed not simply ripped off from someone on Thingiverse.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 09:30PM
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 09:34PM
Ahhhh, thank you for that link of the picture because I see a name on it from a jack(youknowwhat) who I called a shill for Bre because he made 100 dollars from MBI and is running around claiming they are really great. Now I see what I was dealing with.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 11:15PM
I did mention the high priced whores thing, right?


- akhlut

Just remember - Iterate, Iterate, Iterate!

[myhomelessmind.blogspot.com]
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 21, 2012 11:40PM
Yeah, he was very obvious over on Thingiverse and I stood my ground then I saw that picture and knew. I mean this guy was on me in rapid succession as if he were a troll or something. I get emotional when I write but when I said what I did about Bre I meant it and emotional or not he didn't take one thing I said (especially about all of the good will that MBI has made over all of this length of time has been shat on by Bre over the course of a few days) like a normal two way communication would have done. Nope, he acted like a shill, or a troll, and thanks to that picture I confronted him with it and not another word.

Now what is so sad is something that was his last communication to me before I pictured him out and that was that things are as they are and I (basically this movement) needs to grow up. I have only ever been told that sort of thing once in my life and my hairs on the back of my neck stood straight up when I read it and I got a little sick in my stomach because the one who told me that was a criminal as they were taking him away from a scene of a crime. Nope, I don't like the thugs that infiltrated MBI at all.
Re: The death of Thingiverse?
September 22, 2012 12:39AM
Sublime Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did you miss the $749 dollar ones
> [www.flickr.com]
> /set-72157631585306127/

*raises eyebrow*

You could have that made on an ultra high resolution SLA or Objet machine for that.
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